Male desire/ sexual rights

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I stumbled across this piece in the Guardian over the weekend: older man bemoaning the fact that his wife no longer wants sex with him, with the implication that this either 'forces' him to have affairs or he will have to leave her in order to have what he sees as his right to a sex life.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/apr/18/my-life-in-sex-my-wife-wants-a-desire-free-old-age-but-i-still-see-her-as-my-sexual-partner

The article and most of the responses reminded me of the judge who declared that it was a husband's fundamental right to have sex with his wife:

www.theguardian.com/law/2019/apr/03/english-judge-says-man-having-sex-with-wife-is-fundamental-human-right

And then of various articles about men rating brothels and the women they abuse in them:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disturbing-sex-work-website-men-20574557

And it made me think of all the autogynophiles abandoning their wives and children to pursue their sexual kink who may, oddly enough, never have sex with anyone else again in their pursuit to make themselves into the object of their desire.

I know this is just feminism 101 – that we live in a society based around testosterone, where the male sexual urge is regarded as sacrosanct and women are still expected to service their male partners' sexual needs. And yes, I fully expect a few women to respond this that they love sex and are always ready for it, any time, any where. But what about the millions of us who can't say that?

I've looked through the Guardian seeking a response that doesn't basically affirm a man's right to have sex and can see very few. There are a couple of clearly feminist responses early on, but after that everyone politely acknowledges that a man has his urges and he needs to express them with another human being. Is the Guardian weeding out anyone who says that sex isn't a human right or is this an indication that the majority of people accept the fundamental right of men to have sex somehow, some way, with anyone they can?

What would you, women of Mumsnet feminism chat, say to the man in the Guardian?

Sexual urges are like feelings. They are a natural part of being human, everyone has them and everyone is entitled to have them. But that doesn’t meant that you can take them out on someone else. You can’t demand that other people love you, you can’t demand that other people respect you and in the same vein you can’t demand that someone has sex with you. You have every right to want and attempt to have sex (in the same way that we are all right to want to find someone to love and actively go about trying to do so) but you have no right to expect it. If you choose to be arsehole in your pursuit of sex well then that’s a reflection of your character, not the strength of your needs.

You have every right to want and attempt to have sex

Would that include with other people when you've been married to a woman you say you love for many years and you'd like to stay with her if only she'd have sex with you?

You can choose not to live in a sexless relationship regardless of what sex you are.

His wife has the right not to want/have sex, and he has the right not to live in a sexless marriage.
The Relationship board is full of these dilemmas and they advice is always the same.
Affairs or prostitutes shouldn't be the answer though.

Yes, of course you can, and I've known lesbians blame lesbian-bed-death for the end of their relationship. But from what I understand that tends to happen fairly early on in lesbian relationships, not after 30 years.

Deydo, I'm sure there are. I was thinking about this issue specifically from a feminist perspective which is why I posted here.

Mymomsbetterthanyourmom – who's mentioned hating men?

I think a partner of either sex is perfectly entitled to decide they don't want to stay in a sexless relationship, and leave that relationship.

I'm a woman. My XH unilaterally ended our sex life and refused to talk about why or attend counselling. I told him I planned to start seeing other people, and then shortly after I ended the marriage. I don't think I was massively unreasonable.

Everyone has the right to sex with a willing partner.

If the partner is unwilling, then the relationship may need to be reassessed. But if a sex-seeking person has made a commitment to their sex-averse partner to have an exclusive relationship with them, that reassessment does not give them the right to seek sex elsewhere.

I do think that the partner who doesn't want sex should have an honest conversation with the one wanting it.
And be prepared for the possibility that the relationship will end or to allow the partner to seek sex elsewhere.

In any case, I don't know how often a partner decides they don't want to have sex anymore at all, at least without health or relationship problems. It might be that sex is unsatisfactory or that they aren't happy with their partner.

I don't want to seem rude but none of you seem to be seeing the bigger picture of a world in which porn, the sex industry, trafficking, mail-order brides etc exist to service male sexual desire. They validate and elevate it in a way women's sexuality isn't.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that this is the personal expression of a major cultural and political problem.

I read that letter at the weekend. It sounded like a disgruntled customer writing to the manufacturer to complain that his sex doll had malfunctioned.

@JellySlice do you really mean that? If everyone has the right to sex with a willing partner it would involve everyone being provided with one.

I think everyone has the right to desire sex and also the right to leave a relationship openly and honestly if it doesn't meet their perceived needs. No one owes anyone sex and no one has tights over anyone else's body.

Absolutely agree with you OP

OTOH, there is a certain sneeriness towards male virgins or an assumption that men who turn down sex are odd in some way.

I do think that male and female desire is different. Men are more likely to enjoy sex without emotional attachment, more turned on by visual cues, more likely to have fetishes. Obviously there are exceptions, but I think this holds on average.

Desire isn't good or bad in itself, but can be expressed in good or bad ways. I think what's missing in our society is a belief in self-control as a virtue and an acceptable that "you can't always get what you want".

Acceptance not acceptable

The willing partner is crucial. No-one has the right to intervene in a private sexual experience between two willing partners. Having sex is a basic human need. It is cruel to forbid it.

That doesn't mean willing partners must be provided.

Supporters of prostitution say that the person being paid for sex is a willing partner, otherwise she (it is usually she) wouldn't sell her service. Opponents of prostitution say that the person being paid for sex is not a willing partner as her consent has been coerced from her by need, not choice.

A relationship is more than just consensual sex. If sex no longer works in a relationship, then the terms of the relationship have changed. The partners need to recognise this and either together modify the terms of their relationship, or end it. Anything else would be unfair to one or other of them.

OTOH, there is a certain sneeriness towards male virgins or an assumption that men who turn down sex are odd in some way

It is a popular trope that middle aged women are somehow denying middle aged males sex. However, it is quite common for men's libido to go awol, then it seems it is the woman's responsibility to spice it up by dressing up and 'introducing sex toys' etc. I never see anything about men wiggling around in budgie smugglers/Calvin Klines and using a rabbit on himself to turn his wife on.

The court case mentioned in the OP has nothing to do with this question. It was really about an entirely different issue, and quite a serious one too. It shouldn't be lumped in to this.

I'm not sure the question of sexual access within marriage is really best characterised as a rights issue. In many ways a marriage is about a voluntary curtailment of rights, I agree not to act as a private individual only but for the good or the relationship and the good of the other person in the relationship. That can apply to sex, where I live, choosing a job, what I spend money on. I don't think that can be mediated at the level of rights. When it stops operating on that basis, in many ways the marriage is over.

When I see people talking about how they need sex though, and how if their spouse won't/can't have it any more, they have a "right" or "need" to get sex elsewhere, I see this in modern life as coming out of a fairly specific set of ideas that have been pushed by some groups about sex. They tend to say things like sex is natural, a human need, part of being a healthy adult. A surprising amount of that is in the background when kids learn about sex too, either through things like the media (even sitcoms seem to have people hopping in or out of bed with each other like rabbits) even in school there an be a lot of banging on about sex being natural. And the other side of that is that there is little in the way of discussion or examples of sexual continence that are shown as very worthy, not a lot of value given to self control sexually and even less concrete advice or practice of sexual self control, which like all kinds of self-disapline is something that is in part learned. At best, it's seen as a necessary thing if you can't find a wiling partner, making the best of necessity.

I'm always interested when people discuss this how many people are honestly unaware that choosing to not have sex is something that people could do long term even if they still have a lot of desire - they tend to think people who do choose it are somehow less interested in sex. Or who really believe that living in that way would be completely horrible and make life not worth living. That has to be something culturally learned.

Everyone has the right to sex with a willing partner.

This is an oxymoron. If a willing partner is required (as it should be) then sex cannot be a right. The only sex one can have a right to without compromising the rights of others is with oneself.

Yes, male entitlement and need for sex is seen culturally as valuable and a 'need' in the way that female needs of any kind never are, and it's culturally fetishized.

However the idea of right to sex (and to rape your wife if she won't give it up willingly) is gone, and women no longer train their daughters to lay back and think of England and do their duty for their man like it or not; as is 'til death us do part no matter how unhappy you are. Did you want to discuss whether after x years' commitment to a marriage if one partner no longer wants sex the other partner has a duty to demonstrate their love by accepting this and staying in a sexless marriage whether or not they want to?

Basic emotional and behavioural responsibility: if you're in a relationship you are no longer happy in then you take responsibility for your feelings, leave and find a relationship that does fulfil you. As opposed to blaming or coercing your partner to do something they don't want to.

Everyone has the right to sex with a willing partner.

No one has a right to sex.

Willing is something another person makes the decision to do; they can't be controlled or provided. No matter how many essays incels write trying to intellectually justify it.

The word right can be used in different ways. We can talk about the right to adequate food - if there is no food, you still aren't getting any right or no right.

I'm not sure about using the term with sex though. We give people a lot of freedom around sex, but also some constraints, they have to be willing, also of age, have mental capacity. Sometimes even with these things in place we may not allow it where one person is in a position of trust, or is something like an employer. Incest is still illegal in many places.

We've been moving toward removing more and more legal constraints to sex for the past 60 years or so, but there still is a recognition that it's not always a simple matter of a private agreement.

No one has a right to have sex with anyone else but sex is a 'normal' expectation within a marriage and I think it's perfectly understandable that someone would wish to leave a sexless relationship.