Male desire/ sexual rights

[onlydigestivesinthetin]

I stumbled across this piece in the Guardian over the weekend: older man bemoaning the fact that his wife no longer wants sex with him, with the implication that this either 'forces' him to have affairs or he will have to leave her in order to have what he sees as his right to a sex life.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/apr/18/my-life-in-sex-my-wife-wants-a-desire-free-old-age-but-i-still-see-her-as-my-sexual-partner

The article and most of the responses reminded me of the judge who declared that it was a husband's fundamental right to have sex with his wife:

www.theguardian.com/law/2019/apr/03/english-judge-says-man-having-sex-with-wife-is-fundamental-human-right

And then of various articles about men rating brothels and the women they abuse in them:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disturbing-sex-work-website-men-20574557

And it made me think of all the autogynophiles abandoning their wives and children to pursue their sexual kink who may, oddly enough, never have sex with anyone else again in their pursuit to make themselves into the object of their desire.

I know this is just feminism 101 – that we live in a society based around testosterone, where the male sexual urge is regarded as sacrosanct and women are still expected to service their male partners' sexual needs. And yes, I fully expect a few women to respond this that they love sex and are always ready for it, any time, any where. But what about the millions of us who can't say that?

I've looked through the Guardian seeking a response that doesn't basically affirm a man's right to have sex and can see very few. There are a couple of clearly feminist responses early on, but after that everyone politely acknowledges that a man has his urges and he needs to express them with another human being. Is the Guardian weeding out anyone who says that sex isn't a human right or is this an indication that the majority of people accept the fundamental right of men to have sex somehow, some way, with anyone they can?

What would you, women of Mumsnet feminism chat, say to the man in the Guardian?

If a woman was posting here that her husband has completely gone off sex, or is refusing to have sex would you all be giving her the same advice?

They'd be telling her that he was masturbating to porn, I've seen it many times.

I'm not sure anyone is defending it but you are taking some words in a newspaper article and then inferring certain things from it, with no evidence that what you think is true.

Maybe he suspects the truth around hrt because of her views on it, expressed earlier in the marriage? Maybe she's always said she would take it or that fears around breast cancer aren't true, until it comes to her taking it - as possible a scenario as your made up version.

Maybe he suspects she didn't enjoy sex as much as him because she never instigated it? She might have been enthusiastic once it happened but was never that bothered about it.

Again, who knows? But you are reading between the lines and coming up with your version but putting down anyone else that does the same.

He shouldn't have had affairs, I agree. Anyone who is that unhappy should leave the relationship, not cheat.

They'd be telling her that he was masturbating to porn, I've seen it many times.

Yep.

The stereotype is alive and well on MN - all men are up for sex, all the time, and if they aren't they are either having an affair, gay or addicted to porn.

Women, however, basically don't want sex and only do it because they are coerced into.it. never because they enjoy it.

Zero interest in a round the houses repeat ad infinitum thread. I've said my piece about my response the husband's stated problem, and I don't have anything more to add.

Off out to enjoy the sunshine. Ta Ra.

If a woman was posting here that her husband has completely gone off sex, or is refusing to have sex would you all be giving her the same advice

But the response a woman may get on an Aibu post is neither correct or potentially the same response she would get from the women on the Fwr board.

The fact a woman may or may not be told that her partner is using porn or cheating, or she should force him into sex, in my eyes shows that many women have been conditioned to believe that it's the norm for men to be a sex pest, and if he isn't there is somthing wrong that needs fixing.

Lastly its is usually correct for a woman to be given different advice to the the same relationship question to a man, because the dynamics in a relationship are usually different for the man and the woman, and the roles within the relationship are usually different.

I may be wildly off target as I have to infer a lot by saying this, but I think this is a problem re: the male gaze and the sense of female self worth.

I’m my experience some (and by no means all) women very much intertwine their own self worth with their own desirability. In short being desirable kick starts feelings of self worth.

Most women grow out of this sooner or later and if there wasn’t much else motivating them in sex then it pretty much brings that phase of their lives to a close.

Female sexuality isn’t really all that complicated the female body is capable of both giving and receiving great pleasure, but we have domesticated, subjugated it and put it under the yoke.

I wholly disagree with the man saying he doesn’t objectify his wife, because he objectifies femininity itself by placing the sensation of his own orgasm above pretty much anything else. He may prefer the convenience of his wife being the one providing those, but he by his own admission has treated three other women as his sex objects whom he discarded the moment they became inconvenient to him. He may in his own way love his wife, but I suspect he loves himself more.

Female sexuality isn’t really all that complicated the female body is capable of both giving and receiving great pleasure, but we have domesticated, subjugated it and put it under the yoke.

I'm not sure I agree that this is true across the board. It's certainly true for some women, but I am not at all convinced that all women will find they have great pleasure just by freeing their sexuality somehow. And many women find it takes time to learn to enjoy sex, and it seems mainly a matter of experience, which isn't a typical experience for men.

I've had some pretty significant changes in my sex drive over the years. It was probably on the high side when I was younger though I couldn't easily make it work for me. After I had kids, while I was breastfeeding, it was almost zero, in fact the whole idea of it seemed a bit gross. It changed within 24 hours when I got my period back after my youngest started to wean - at that point I was also perimenopausal and my sex drive pretty much went through the roof. None of that was about some psychological issue or new technique or anything, it was clearly and completely hormonal. I'm now finding I can track my sex drive through my menstrual cycle as hormone levels change, its remarkably correlated to all the different hormonal changes with ovulation etc. I assume when things finally settle down, it will be somewhat stable as long as the rest of my health is fine, but stable could easily be largely non-existant.

Hi Italiangreyhound - definitely no fighting

There are so many possible readings of the limited information provided by the husband and then so many possible responses to those readings.

I have gone with a line that if he has not mentioned something relevant (eg. whether they ever discussed the disparity in sexual satisfaction) then it probably didn't happen whereas you have gone in the other direction, which in this case gives him the benefit of the doubt.

Both are legitimate readings

Lastly its is usually correct for a woman to be given different advice to the the same relationship question to a man, because the dynamics in a relationship are usually different for the man and the woman, and the roles within the relationship are usually different.

So, are you saying that a woman, unhappy to be in a sexless marriage, should be encouraged to leave but a man, in an unhappy sexless marriage, should be encouraged to stay?

So, are you saying that a woman, unhappy to be in a sexless marriage, should be encouraged to leave but a man, in an unhappy sexless marriage, should be encouraged to stay?

No I'm not saying that. If you read my entire post you'll note that I comment that just because the women of the AIBU board advise somthing, it does not make it right.

All I'm saying is relationship advise in general will be different for woman and men because we are different. So saying, women would be advised different to men is a bit irrelevant really.

And relationships are complex, your questioned can not be answered because the answer would depend on the individual circumstances of each couple.

I think it's interesting he felt the need to mention the other women wanted to share him.
He feels the need to emphasise,in an anonymous letter, that he is attractive enough that he had to dump three women he was having affairs with because they became too attached to him.
I think a man in his 50s able to find three women to have NSA sex with, in a way that his wife who he lives with won't find out about, and who is such a catch all three women want more, is likely just good at making things up.
Either that or he's very wealthy and picked three women worse off than him.
But even if he's telling the truth, his insistence on mentioning that in such a short letter suggests that he's pre-empting criticism about having become physically unattractive.
Interestingly his behaviour has become deeply unattractive to his wife, and she is irritated by his advances. "Some women liked it though!" he appears to protest.
There's too much detail missing, not least her side of the story, but from what he writes, he seems like an arse.

I also think that it's reasonable for him to leave.

You make an important point, Flying Oink.
He may very well be an office lothario as well as one at home.
"It would be irresponsible NOT to speculate."

The issue isn't that this man should be given permission to leave an unfulfilling relationship. Everyone already has that right and of course he can leave and I doubt that anyone in the comments was insisting he wasn't allowed to leave.

The issue is that he hasn't left it, despite decades of a sex life that was apparently subpar from the start and has now fizzled out. That's his choice; why is he still making that choice?

I think what the OP was raising was the question of whether in our culture a significant chunk of men are socialized to think of sex as something they are entitled to have from their partner, no matter what life changes both of them have been through. This may be part of why he hasn't yet made the choice to leave, because he feels deep down a sense that his partner owes him an active sex life.

I think this is a very interesting question to raise about male and female socialization.

Everyone has the right to sex with a willing partner.
I think there are different ways to interpret this.
I see it as being that if a person can find a willing and consenting partner, no-one else has the right to tell them they cannot have sex. It does not mean that they have the right to have a partner provided for them. That would be the oxymoron. A partner cannot be both provided and willing.
Maybe willing is the wrong word - a person who wants to have sex with the other person.

There have been cases of adults with learning difficulties and disabilities were prevented from having relationships with each other by the people providing their care needs. That was unacceptable, they had the right to have sex just as any adult would.

Men do not have the right to have sex with any person at any time they want. Decisions to have sex must always be mutual and fully able to freely consent.

It's late, and I'm tired, but this type of scenario pops up so often online and in real life with friends and family that I honestly believe most women really don't actually see the world that they are forced to live in clearly.
A man needs sex, if he doesn't get sex he will die or his penis will fall off or he will be in chronic pain.... He must cheat to save his life, or complain loudly and often until his wife starts playing him as is only natural. Service your men you awful selfish women.
Hormonal changes that have stolen your sex drives? Tough! There's a man in need here.
Birth injuries? Pah, your pain and discomfort is nothing compared to what these poor men are suffering, and oh boy are they suffering.
Touched out? Weighed down by responsibilities? Stupid selfish malfunctioning woman, depriving a man of the most basic of needs.
It's fucking disgusting that we live in a world where men's orgasms, and it is men's orgasms not people's orgasms, are so fucking important that relationships /families end because of them, or lack of them. Men don't need sex. Let's start there. No don't use it as a treat or a weapon etc and sure it can be part of a relationship but why is it so important?
What exactly is a valid reason in most peoples minds for a woman to refuse sex?
The complaining man doesn't care about his wife's sex life, only his own. If she never had an orgasm again he wouldn't care, as long as he got his. I wish men like this would fuck off.
'human rights violation when husband denied access to wife's vagina, prostitute saves man's life by renting out hers'
Poor men and their suffering.
I'm not a man hater, but I'm definitely a man's entitlement hater.

MoleSmokes

"I have gone with a line that if he has not mentioned something relevant (eg. whether they ever discussed the disparity in sexual satisfaction) then it probably didn't happen whereas you have gone in the other direction, which in this case gives him the benefit of the doubt.2

Surely my version gives them both the benefit of the doubt, not just him. In my head, he tried to make sex more fun for her, and she tried to make it more enjoyable for herself. And maybe (it would appear) both failed.

In my head, he didn't start having affairs until his wife 'lost interest' for want of better words, in sex (with him). This is not to excuse his actions or even necessarily to explain them, but it is to say that if she did not know about the affairs, or if they didn't happen until she 'lost interest', then they are not relevant as a reason for her feelings changing.

What I personally think is a reason is some level of biology, some level of cultural expectations, and some level or person feelings which she may be unable or unwilling to change.

I am writing this as a middle aged heterosexual woman. So I have mu own interest in how any of us may feel as we age.

FlyingOink quite shocked that you would assume he could only get women to sleep with him if they were poor or he was rich. Of course that does happen but it is not the default position.

Both are legitimate readings

Both are legitimate readings sorry I think was left over from Mole's quote!

I think a man in his 50s able to find three women to have NSA sex with, in a way that his wife who he lives with won't find out about, and who is such a catch all three women want more, is likely just good at making things up.
Either that or he's very wealthy and picked three women worse off than him.

Italiangreyhound: FlyingOink quite shocked that you would assume he could only get women to sleep with him if they were poor or he was rich.

You wouldn't be so shocked, I don't think, if you you read what is written instead of putting words in people's mouths that shock you.

Bentoforthehorde

Do you not think that women enjoy sex then?

Why have you written your post as though it's only men who enjoy sex and see it as part of a relationship? There are many threads on MN from women who are in relationships where sex doesn't happen and are unhappy about it. They are always told that the man is selfish and unreasonable for not seeking medical help, or if that fails, then he should at least give her pleasure even if he doesn't want sex himself. People encourage her to threaten him with leaving. No one berated her for coercing her partner into having sex or tells her that she is wrong for expecting sex in a relationship.

Unless you have both willingly entered into a celibate relationship I think that it is normal for both parties to anticipate that they will be having sex. If, for whatever reason, sex is removed from the relationship then that fundamentally changed the relationship and neither party is wrong for deciding to leave it in that case.

Unless you have both willingly entered into a celibate relationship I think that it is normal for both parties to anticipate that they will be having sex. If, for whatever reason, sex is removed from the relationship then that fundamentally changed the relationship and neither party is wrong for deciding to leave it in that case

Totally agree. If you go into a relationship - both in agreement there will be sex and then at some point one party changes their mind. Thats fine- they have every right to change their mind and their partner ALSO has every right to leave the relationship because the fundamental goal posts have changed. This isnt about an insignificant matter that only affects one partner - this is about a topic that affects both people in the relationship and for one, contributes to the overall quality of the relationship.

That applies to other topics too- if I married someone and neither of us wanted kids and we agreed on that and then years later he suddenly told me he wanted them and couldn't be happy without them, our relationship would probably break down. He has a right to change his mind and want kids, I have a right to not want them and leave.
You cannot suddenly change the goal posts of a relationship and expect the other partner to just go along with it no questions asked or to accuse them of being unreasonable for bringing up the fact they dont like the change.

I think that if the amount of women who enjoyed their sex lives was anywhere near the amount of men who are happy with theirs you would have a point, but I think, especially if you take the whole world into account, sex for the vast majority is about a man's orgasm, not a woman's.
Of course there are women who enjoy sex. But you are kidding yourself if you think that to the world, or society, a woman's sexuallly pleasure is anywhere near as important as a man's.
If it was then a HUGE portion of these 'problems' would disappear.
Why do people have sex? Because they feel like it, because they want to, because they enjoy it? What about because its an obligation, because they are nagged, because it is their duty, because their partner has a right to it?
Have sex with me because it is my right to fuck someone so if you don't, I'll find a willing partner or one I can buy. Sexy, right?
If you think the amount of women saying or implying the same to their partners is even 10% of that then you and I must be in different universes.
In a lot of cases men are easier to please sexuallly than women, this has a lot to do with the physical and mental burdon of family life as well as just biology.
So this is not a level playing field.
Again, I think if things were different, if most women could orgasm as easily as most men, maybe things would be different.
If some of these women who take sex of the table in their relationships get nothing out of the sex themselves why should they continue having sex? What if we changed the wording. What if, man or woman, instead of saying sex, we used pleasure or orgasm.
So instead of saying let's have sex, someone would just say "I want an orgasm", or "I want to give you an orgasm" . "Pleasure me", or "I want to pleasure you".
What do you think that would look like? Do you think there would be an equal split between men and women in the demand to be sexuallly pleasured or request to sexuallly pleasure their partner? Or would the majority be men saying mememememememe?
As for leaving, this pisses me off.
For most of these it isn't about leaving. It is about justifying cheating or being a coersive arse. If it was about leaving then they would fucking leave.
The leaving in itself is biased in men's favour though. If a woman decided she's got a shit sex life and instead of fucking sucking it up 'for the kids' or whatever, decided she was going to leave her partner with the kids to jolly off and experience the single, child free life, even for a bit, she'd be a shit mother and sub standard woman.
Women are not free to be guided by their vaginas in the same way that men are Expected to be guided by their penises. This is truth, not just my opinion.

Unless you have both willingly entered into a celibate relationship I think that it is normal for both parties to anticipate that they will be having sex. If, for whatever reason, sex is removed from the relationship then that fundamentally changed the relationship and neither party is wrong for deciding to leave it in that case.

Personally, I think it's very sad that if after 40 years of a let's assume loving marriage, rasing children together and sharing a life, one partner would leave the other as they enter their twilight years - dispute loving feelings - because one party no longer wants to have a sex. Especially if that is because due to biological changes they no longer derive pleasure from it.

If my dh decided to leave me in my 60s because I no longer wanted to have sex, I would question the extent of his love and respect for me in the first place.

And PP is right, in the guardian scenario leaving obvisouly isn't on the cards or he would have done it. His options seem to be force/coerce his wife or have affairs; and he's almost looking for someone to ligitamise his actions.

TehBewilderness you quoted the poster.

"Either that or he's very wealthy and picked three women worse off than him."

Perhaps I should say if they were poorer or he was richer. I'm paraphrasing. Not putt ing words in anyone's mouth. And I am shocked!

Bentoforthehorde

I've seen it said on here previously that no one is responsible for another person's orgasm. So, why are women putting up with unsatisfactory sex? Whose responsibility is it?

Absolutely, no doubt, no one should be forced, coerced, nagged into having sex that they don't want but at the same time if you are in a relationship you cannot just decide that you don't want sex anymore and expect your partner to accept that.

If you don't want sex because it's unsatisfying, or because your partner isn't doing their fair share and you can't discuss this then that to me signifies bigger problems in the relationship.

You say that it's not easy for women to leave, that may be true. It's not easy for men to.leave either though is it as usually that means then having to.leave their children and their homes.

If men are having bad sex who would you think is responsible for that? I'm quite sure you won't say it's the partners fault, so whose fault is it if we are having bad sex?

Dervel Generally, except in moments of extreme heroics, we all love ourselves more. IMHO.