Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Male desire/ sexual rights

210 replies

onlydigestivesinthetin · 20/04/2020 10:30

I stumbled across this piece in the Guardian over the weekend: older man bemoaning the fact that his wife no longer wants sex with him, with the implication that this either 'forces' him to have affairs or he will have to leave her in order to have what he sees as his right to a sex life.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/apr/18/my-life-in-sex-my-wife-wants-a-desire-free-old-age-but-i-still-see-her-as-my-sexual-partner

The article and most of the responses reminded me of the judge who declared that it was a husband's fundamental right to have sex with his wife:

www.theguardian.com/law/2019/apr/03/english-judge-says-man-having-sex-with-wife-is-fundamental-human-right

And then of various articles about men rating brothels and the women they abuse in them:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disturbing-sex-work-website-men-20574557

And it made me think of all the autogynophiles abandoning their wives and children to pursue their sexual kink who may, oddly enough, never have sex with anyone else again in their pursuit to make themselves into the object of their desire.

I know this is just feminism 101 – that we live in a society based around testosterone, where the male sexual urge is regarded as sacrosanct and women are still expected to service their male partners' sexual needs. And yes, I fully expect a few women to respond this that they love sex and are always ready for it, any time, any where. But what about the millions of us who can't say that?

I've looked through the Guardian seeking a response that doesn't basically affirm a man's right to have sex and can see very few. There are a couple of clearly feminist responses early on, but after that everyone politely acknowledges that a man has his urges and he needs to express them with another human being. Is the Guardian weeding out anyone who says that sex isn't a human right or is this an indication that the majority of people accept the fundamental right of men to have sex somehow, some way, with anyone they can?

What would you, women of Mumsnet feminism chat, say to the man in the Guardian?

OP posts:
Naturalbornkiller · 21/04/2020 10:32

There's a percentage of the population who won't even entertain the possibility that he might be doing anything bad by being perfectly happy to have sex with someone who he's always known isn't enjoying it nearly as much as he is.

This with bells on. If I man can enjoy sex with someone who is submitting rather than enjoying, doesn't say much about him - but this is accepted as a cultural norm, which I think can be attributed to the old religious dogma that only whores enjoy sex.

How can it be enjoyable sex without enthusiastic consent. Because lots of men still see women as fuck holes.

Porcupineinwaiting · 21/04/2020 10:43

Its amazing how many people will bend over backwards to excuse men being selfish in bed

It's amazing how many people will reinforce the idea that women being the passive recipients of sex is the norm and perfectly understandable in any women over the age of 35.

The idea that women should be enjoy sex has been discussed in mainstream society since the 1960s, well within the lifetime of adults in their 60s. Even my mum (who was brought up very much in the lie back and think of England model) got the message and she's coming up to 80.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 21/04/2020 10:46

Nice try, but given that the man in question is complaining precisely because his wife is no longer willing to serve as the passive recipient of the sex he wants to be having it's not a terribly convincing argument.

Lamahaha · 21/04/2020 10:52

I agree that there are plenty of people who appreciate this but it's the public orthodoxy – that sex is the be-all and end-all, that a normal loving relationship will always include regular sex – that both concerns me and props up the sex and porn trade.

Exactly. The wife in that letter could easily have been me. I always had a low libido but any desire I had dropped off completely the moment I had children, and never returned. I consider this a natural development, I find it so sad that many women are then encouraged to seek therapy to regain desire, or feel obliged to role-play the sexy temptress to keep the husband, or think of themselves as dried up prunes -- because our culture tells us that to be a full human being you have to have an active and enjoyable sex life.

I am fortunate, though, in that for the past 40 years or so I have been deeply involved in a culture that sees sexuality both male and female as a phase and not necessarily the be all and end all -- that there is life after sex, and it might even by better. For me it is definitely better. I practice meditation, and over the years the joy that has developed slowly over time is far deeper and more permanent than any pleasure I have ever gained from sex.

And I know men who feel the same. One of my closest friends is a man I've known most of my adult life -- I met him in India. He was a virile, good looking, very attractive man who could really have any woman he wanted. Back in the had several girlfriends, one after the other, who all wanted to marry him. I was so jealous of them!

He could have had me, as I was secretly in love with him, but he chose for us to be just close friends, and now he is perhaps the closest friend I have, who knows me best. He remained a bachelor, and eventually chose a celibate life, as he believes, as Vedantic philosophy teaches, that sexuality can by sublimated into a different, and superior, kind of experience. So now we chat long and often, about sex and Corona and everything else. He lives a quiet and sexless life in India, and has done so now for decades. He phones me regularly to chat. Last Saturday, most recently.

In the meantime I married someone else and had two children. As in the OP, my husband continued to desire me physically and it grew really tiring. As in one of the comments in the Guardian article said, it was like being coerced into playing something you'd long grown out of, like Barbies or something. The physical act which I'd once enjoyed now seemed just silly and and even gross.

I was prepared to let my husband fulfill his needs elsewhere, and I told him so, but he only ever wanted me, which made it difficult... I loved him, and I knew he'd always be true to me in his heart, but if I couldn't fulfill this desire then why not; I was confident of his love. But he wanted me.

Then he got very ill. I was his carer for years, until the work became too much for me. He went into a care home and I visited every day, talked to him, loved him, held his hand until he died.

I only wish he had found a way, like the other man mentioned above, to move on from sexual desire. This "moving on" is very much a part in some Eastern cultures, where gaining control of sexual urges is regarded as way of gaining enormous inner strength, and is admired -- while being in thrall to one's penis is regarded as a weakness.

It's all a matter of perspective. Our reverence of sexual desire and sexual fulfillment in the West, seeing it as the height of a fully lived life, is cultural. There is life after sex, and it can be very good indeed. Once you start to believe that, even if you are a man, it's a step forward. You are no longer led by your penis, and sexual desire is something you can divert into something else that leaves you less needy.

Naturalbornkiller · 21/04/2020 10:58

It's amazing how many people will reinforce the idea that women being the passive recipients of sex is the norm and perfectly understandable in any women over the age of 35.

I actually agree that it is a bit ageist to assume a woman in her 60s wouldn't know that she can have a forefilling sex life.

But I think a narrative has and is pushed that tells women that a good wife services her husband. So women then and now accept that although they can have great sex, they won't always. Women's sex drive changes alot as they go through pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding and menopause. Yet we can still feel under pressure from society and our partners to provide sex. And I think that unfortunately overrides the message that sex can be enjoyable for women too.

It's almost, you still have to give your husband sex, but try and enjoy it yourself too - rather than just lie back and think of England.

Lamahaha · 21/04/2020 11:06

Just wanted to add to the above post that when I was young I was in love with that other man but I got over it, and loved my husband deeply and fully. We had a good, solid marriage.

MoleSmokes · 21/04/2020 12:50

Italiangreyhound - I appreciate that my reading of the situation as described by the husband is somewhat harsh but I have tempered that throughout by noting that we are only hearing one side of the story.

This is so telling though, in context of the rest of the story:

"She has always been a feminist, and I have always supported her views concerning equality of education, opportunities, work and pay for men and women. However, she is also my sexual partner, and therefore the woman I desire, not a sex object."

He says he "supports her (feminist) views . . ." rather than that he shares them. As if feminism is a hobby of hers that he indulges.

What I read between the lines here is, "Look, I am a good man, I do not beat my wife". He knows what to avoid doing in order not to mistreat his wife but does not know what to do in order to treat her well.

He clearly hasn't "got it" (feminism) as far as his sexual relationship with his wife is concerned.

From his account, this does not seem to be something they discuss as her voice on this matter is not heard. They do discuss some things though.

For example, she appears to have explained her decision not to take HRT (anxiety about increased risk of breast cancer). However, he then goes into a flight of fancy where he "suspects" she wishes to have a "desire-free old age" based on his misunderstanding that the very existence of any female desire for sex post-menopause is reliant on medication (HRT).

"She decided not to take HRT, mainly because she was anxious about the increased risk of breast cancer. I suspect she was also quite happy to let nature take its course and enjoy a desire-free old age."

Without knowing more, it is possible to construct all sorts of wildly differing narratives to fill out the back story. However, it really is going the extra mile to find excuses for his apparent lack of concern that for over 40+ years of marriage he "never felt she enjoyed it (sex) as much as I did".

Let us not forget that this is a letter in The Guardian. The husband at least must be a dyed-in-the-wool Guardian reader to have sought advice this way. It does not seem unreasonable to suppose that the wife is too.

Several PPs have commented with suppositions about the relationship and the couple's communication with each other based on stereotypes about their age, ie. their 60's.

IMHO it is very possible that "middle class mores" around sex have at least as much relevance.

Lamahaha - thank you so much for sharing your story.
You had a very lucky escape!

FloralBunting · 21/04/2020 13:04

My comments weren't based on stereotypes about their age. None of us can base our comments on anything other than the husband's account, and imo, I think there are legitimate conclusions to draw about a man who claims he is aware he has always enjoyed sex more than his partner and thinks this is mostly her fault/problem/responsibility.

Like I say, only information is his own account, and by his own account, in the absence of further information, I don't think it's outlandish to think that he sounds sexually selfish.

It may well be that she just isn't interested in sex for any number of reasons, which is her prerogative, and it's his to decide if that is a deal breaker for him. No compulsion necessary on either score.

But that aside, if sex is such a vital component for him in his marriage, going by his own description of his behaviour, I'm concluding that it's possible for something to be really important to you and for you to be rather shit at it.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 21/04/2020 13:07

I don't think that either partner in a marriage has the right to change fundamental aspects of it, unilaterally.

Either partner has the right to change their minds about anything, but neither can also expect the spouse to simply go along with it.

Of course sex is a fundamental part of marriage, or romantic relationship, unless it is decided, with mutual consent, by both parties.

If a woman was posting here that her husband has completely gone off sex, or is refusing to have sex would you all be giving her the same advice? Honestly? Would you be telling her that it must be her fault, that she's clearly never cared about his enjoyment which is why he's no longer interested, and that regardless she must stay in the marriage because sex isn't the be all and end all? Really?

There was a thread on MN only the other day. Op wants sex and her dh doesn't. Has never had a high sex drive but has now refused completely. She went through all of her ploys so far - nagged him, threatened him with leaving, cried, tried to force him to see a Dr. Until recently some of these worked, she reported, and he would have sex just to appease her and then stop again.

On that thread most people supported the op both in her behaviour in trying to get him to have sex and also in encouraging her to leave because she shouldn't have to stay in a sexless marriage. How can it be wrong for a woman to have to stay in a sexless marriage but not a man?

Also, can you really apply value judgements on what constitutes an unhappy marriage and therefore the grounds under which one party can choose to leave? Surely that would disadvantage women more?

FloralBunting · 21/04/2020 13:24

No interest in discussing other random threads on MN that are talking about different situations. I was talking about this one, and using the only information available which was the husband's own words. Sure, we could concoct a "what if he was a she and actually a mob boss threatening the world with botulism, what would you say then, huh? huh?" scenario if you want, but it's got nowt to do with the case as presented.

Goosefoot · 21/04/2020 13:31

To some extent it's probably inevitable that among a lot of couples, one might like sex more than the other. It's not the kind of thing where you can assure some sort of complete parity. If I go out for ice-cream with my husband I enjoy it less than him, because he's a big fan but that's fine, because I do like ice-cream.

It does sound like they don't communicate well.

Is a relationship a commitment to financially provide for a partner ad infinitum?

In a lot of ways that is very much the model of marriage - that the couple essentially becomes one economic entity and it's not set up to be a temporary ararngement. That's the origin of the word economic, oikos, a household. It's why there are some pretty complicated rules about division of assets, including things like pensions - if I were to divorce I would be entitled to a portion, probably half, of my husbands pension when he is eligible.

HorseRadishFemish · 21/04/2020 13:36

..I'm concluding that it's possible for something to be really important to you and for you to be rather shit at it..

Bingo!

Italiangreyhound · 21/04/2020 13:38

TehBewilderness
"I don't think your speculation is any more accurate or appropriate than anyone else's, Italiangreyhound."

In what way? Don't feel you need to engage at all but your questioning if what I have said is either accurate or appropriate and so you could back that up with why you think that.

Normally FloralBunting I agee with you 100% but on this issue I don't. "If he's always suspected he enjoyed sex more than she did, it doesn't say much for his ability to communicate with her emotionally or sexually." If we are being honest I thin k it is fairly well known and I would even say accepted that in most heterosexual relationships men are more into sex than women.

This has led to an awful lot of very serious and sad issues for a lot of women, and i do wonder very much if the opposite were true if it would be the case for men being victims of male violence etc. I personally don't think so. So a lot of women are abused and trafficked etc and that is utterly abhorrent. But a husband enjoying sex more than his wife doesn't cause me the same level of concern and doesn't make me think the husband necessarily has issues with his ability to communicate with emotionally or sexually.

Porcupineinwaiting "I think a big issue traditionally is that women were brought up to believe that sex was something they had to tolerate rather than something they should actively enjoy."

I am so interested by this. Is this something that women have been taught, that we have taught ourselves or is it simply a biological reality in the main (we all know men and women whose experiences are the opposite of the majority).

I've heard women say, I wouldn't care if I never had sex again, but I've not heard one man say it. Maybe for a man to be honest and say sex is no big deal would be culturally difficult, and maybe that is why.

TheProdigalKittensReturn "If you know for 40 years that the person you're having sex with is enjoying it less than you are, and you don't appear to have made any effort to address that imbalance..." Where is the bit where he says he didn't do anything?

"It's amazing how many people will bend over backwards to excuse men being selfish in bad." Maybe he is selfish but maybe he is not, can't we just take it at face value, sometimes, that maybe he has a point. Maybe he had tried hard to change things.

I am perfectly willing to imagine he is not doing anything special but I do think there will be couples out there where one person is doing everything to engage the other and it's not working. Then what happens?

Italiangreyhound · 21/04/2020 13:39

"... if the opposite were true if it would be the case for men being victims of female violence etc...

Goosefoot · 21/04/2020 13:42

This "moving on" is very much a part in some Eastern cultures, where gaining control of sexual urges is regarded as way of gaining enormous inner strength, and is admired -- while being in thrall to one's penis is regarded as a weakness.

This used to exist in the west as well. Married couples were not supposed to refuse sex to their spouses, but they were allowed to mutually refrain and were supposed to when fasting, and it was seen as positive for couples past the childbearing period to become celibate, maybe even enter monastic life if they didn't have other responsibilities. And the celibate life in general was considered an equal or even superior path and one that had a lot of scope for satisfaction not available in family life.

We aren't encouraged as westerners to see this way of thinking as having had much that was positive about it, although it's interesting that people seem more willing to accept that kind of idea from Eastern religions.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 21/04/2020 13:43

FloralBunting
So, stay focussed on the op then. Do you think that people should have to stay in a marriage where they are unhappy?. Do you think people should be able to leave a marriage for any reason or for only specific reasons? If specific reasons, then which ones?

If you are saying he is wrong for wanting to leave because he doesn't want a sexless marriage then do you apply the same standard to women too?

Italiangreyhound · 21/04/2020 13:49

Naturalbornkiller "No one's saying its her husbands fault she went off sex are they..."

Yes, several people have directly said or implied he is selfish in bed and that is why his wife doesn't enjoy sex.

"Also he says she didn't enjoy it as much as him. Doesn't really mean much. She could really, really like it, but he could really, really, really like it." I completely agree.

"But I think a narrative has and is pushed that tells women that a good wife services her husband." I honestly don't know many women who this would apply to and I am what you might call 'religious' and know several quite religious women. I think this is a very dated idea but Sadly I think the group who are going to be most likely to fall into this shit trap are young woke women who see it as their duty to make men (and everyone else happy). tough old broads in their 60s (I'm mid 50s) are much less likely to fall for this shit. IMHO.

Italiangreyhound · 21/04/2020 14:00

MoleSmokes

"This is so telling though, in context of the rest of the story:

"She has always been a feminist, and I have always supported her views concerning equality of education, opportunities, work and pay for men and women. However, she is also my sexual partner, and therefore the woman I desire, not a sex object."

He says he "supports her (feminist) views . . ." rather than that he shares them. As if feminism is a hobby of hers that he indulges.

Maybe he doesn't share her feminist views. As a man he cannot be a feminist, can he (?)

What, i think he wants is for him to be his wife's person of desire, not so much an object of desire but a person one desires, as she is his. It's not creepy or perverse for a man to desire a woman, and certainly not one he has committed to for 40 years (all be it he has had affairs, but then I am not one to count everything as rotten because someone has had an affair).

He may or may not share her feminist views, I know few men who do.

So he married her, presumably loves her and desires her still, but for her that feeling has waned and he is lamenting that. I don't think it is the shocking gotcha moment some do. I think it is sad for both of them.

Why do you think he is staying with his wife? He could clearly leave her if he wanted to. Because she is a useful sex object? I am afraid you've read a lot into it. BUT you don't need to agree with me.

I think the HRT comments are a bit sad. Sexual desire may have some connection to hormones, of course, but I think it's a red herring. Maybe he is looking for reasons.

"his apparent lack of concern that for over 40+ years of marriage he "never felt she enjoyed it (sex) as much as I did". I don't think we can conclude this, clearly if she had enjoyed it as much or even more than him, he'd not be in this position. I can't imagine he has simply accepted this situation and done nothing to change it. But even if he didn't do anything to change it, it doesn't mean he thinks she was having sex against her will. That is a stretch. IMHO.

"Let us not forget that this is a letter in The Guardian. The husband at least must be a dyed-in-the-wool Guardian reader to have sought advice this way. It does not seem unreasonable to suppose that the wife is too."

So much stretching I feel like I am in gym class! Wink

Italiangreyhound · 21/04/2020 14:01

MoleSmokes I really do not want to pick a fight so you don't need to reply. I think we just have different opinions and that is 100% OK. Smile

Italiangreyhound · 21/04/2020 14:08

Hearhoovesthinkzebras

"If a woman was posting here that her husband has completely gone off sex, or is refusing to have sex would you all be giving her the same advice? Honestly? Would you be telling her that it must be her fault, that she's clearly never cared about his enjoyment which is why he's no longer interested, and that regardless she must stay in the marriage because sex isn't the be all and end all? Really?"

Spot on. Thanks

Goosefoot · 21/04/2020 14:11

The other thing that strikes me is that there are people who decide to marry knowing that they aren't really into sex, but that it is part of marriage. They want kids, companionship, family life, and they marry understanding that sex is normally part of all of that. If they are good communicators hopefully they have some openness about this between them, but in a lot of instances I think people just take for granted that not everyone is not the same about how they feel about sex.

Maybe, years on, that can start to run into problems when one person thinks that now the time for that is over and the other does not. A lot of marriage problems can come out of unspoken assumptions.

TinselAngel · 21/04/2020 14:22

I don't think that either partner in a marriage has the right to change fundamental aspects of it, unilaterally.

Ha Hooves!, I wish you'd grasped that when we spent days wrangling over the spousal exit clause.

Anyway, one of the many reasons I left my marriage was I felt that I had entered into it with the reasonable expectation of having a heterosexual sex life, but my ex was choosing to mutilate his body to make it something that would not be compatible with my sexuality.

Whilst I didn't feel I had the right to sex whenever I wanted it, I felt I had the right to leave if my husband made a choice that ruled it out altogether.

A subsequent ex would rail about how all relationships break up because women lose interest in sex, but he had no comprehension that a man could help that situation by not being a lazy bastard and by making at least some attempt to be desirable instead of farting and bollock scratching. He seemed to think female desire was something that should just always be there, because that's how his desire was.

I'm not sure what point I'm making but I love being single and not having all that hassle.

Trans widows have been criticised for feeling that we have a right to sex with our husbands.

Italiangreyhound · 21/04/2020 14:32

"Maybe, years on, that can start to run into problems when one person thinks that now the time for that is over and the other does not. A lot of marriage problems can come out of unspoken assumptions."

Bang on Goosefoot (pun intended!) Thanks

TinselAngel "He seemed to think female desire was something that should just always be there, because that's how his desire was." So true, lots of wisdom on this thread. I think despite feeling how modern and enlightened our society is we actually have a long way to go. And I do fear we are going backwards!

Thanks
Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 21/04/2020 14:33

TinselAngel

I'm not really sure of the point you are raising with me. I don't think you should have to stay in the marriage. I don't recall ever having said that?

FloralBunting · 21/04/2020 14:34

The man said in his own complaint that he believes she has never enjoyed it as much as him, and he uses language like 'suspects' when he's talking about her decision not to take HRT because of the breast cancer risk, and he thinks she was actually just looking forward to a 'desire free future'. Plus, you know, infidelity.

I think that it's pretty damned obvious that despite his claims about the rest of their relationship, he is carrying a fuckton of insecurity and hasn't displayed much ability to communicate with his partner on a number of significant levels.

Like I said, maybe they do naturally have differing sex drives and he is within his rights, as are we all, to decide what is a deal breaker for him. But from his own words here, I personally think the lack of sex/incongruence between each others desire/enjoyment/engagement, is down to a lot more than sex drive. Are we really saying that a man who can't keep it in his pants a number of times, thinks he enjoys sex more than his wife does when they have it, and suspects his wife lied to him about not wanting breast cancer when actually she doesn't want to have sex is some sort of put upon, suffering individual?

Sorry, I think he sounds like an arse. And if a woman presented her situation the same way, she would sound like an arse too, but the point is that women don't get a general pass when they behave like this. He cheated on her and he gets sympathy strokes because he says he likes sex more than she does? Please.

It's like a reverse NAMALT, even on this thread - we have to be informed that some women also really like sex and behave selfishly sometimes. Yes, they do. But it's brought up here as a counterpoint to defend the dude with the lack of insight as to why his wife might not want to rock it with the guy who cheated on her a number of times, doesn't trust her and for 40 years thinks she got less out of their sex than he did and takes no responsibility for that all. Why would anyone defend that?