Male desire/ sexual rights

[onlydigestivesinthetin]

I stumbled across this piece in the Guardian over the weekend: older man bemoaning the fact that his wife no longer wants sex with him, with the implication that this either 'forces' him to have affairs or he will have to leave her in order to have what he sees as his right to a sex life.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/apr/18/my-life-in-sex-my-wife-wants-a-desire-free-old-age-but-i-still-see-her-as-my-sexual-partner

The article and most of the responses reminded me of the judge who declared that it was a husband's fundamental right to have sex with his wife:

www.theguardian.com/law/2019/apr/03/english-judge-says-man-having-sex-with-wife-is-fundamental-human-right

And then of various articles about men rating brothels and the women they abuse in them:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disturbing-sex-work-website-men-20574557

And it made me think of all the autogynophiles abandoning their wives and children to pursue their sexual kink who may, oddly enough, never have sex with anyone else again in their pursuit to make themselves into the object of their desire.

I know this is just feminism 101 – that we live in a society based around testosterone, where the male sexual urge is regarded as sacrosanct and women are still expected to service their male partners' sexual needs. And yes, I fully expect a few women to respond this that they love sex and are always ready for it, any time, any where. But what about the millions of us who can't say that?

I've looked through the Guardian seeking a response that doesn't basically affirm a man's right to have sex and can see very few. There are a couple of clearly feminist responses early on, but after that everyone politely acknowledges that a man has his urges and he needs to express them with another human being. Is the Guardian weeding out anyone who says that sex isn't a human right or is this an indication that the majority of people accept the fundamental right of men to have sex somehow, some way, with anyone they can?

What would you, women of Mumsnet feminism chat, say to the man in the Guardian?

Well, seeing as you think a man's enjoyment is pretty much guaranteed from the most basic sex then surely it's actually men putting in more effort for their female partners than the other way round?

Studies suggest otherwise. www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/heterosexual-women-orgasm-sex-less-other-demographics-lgbt-lesbian-gay-study-chapman-indiana-a7595181.html

"The false dilemma fallacy is often a manipulative tool designed to polarize the audience, heroicizing one side and demonizing the other. It’s common in political discourse as a way of strong-arming the public into supporting controversial legislation or policies."

If 95% of straight men orgasm every time and only 65% of straight women do, you don't have to be Carol Vorderman to see there's a gap.
So assuming the majority of sexual encounters are the kind of everyday sex married and cohabiting couples have (as they have sex way more often than single people), and allowing for the fact casual sex is less likely to result in orgasm for straight women than sex with a regular partner, there is still a gap in married sex whereby men are having more orgasms.

If your argument is that orgasms don't matter, then that's your personal opinion and you can't argue they wouldn't matter for all those women who aren't having them.
Surely intimate loving sex WITH is better than intimate loving sex WITHOUT?

TehBewilderness
I'm confused, is that for me? I'm not demonising straight men, I'm just pointing out that they are different.
Some of them might be demonic but NAMALT etc.

A lot of the time it is men just wanting to get it off, regardless of what the woman is thinking.She could be really into it,she enjoys it, she loves him,she could have instigated it, sometimes she's not be bothered, but she will be ok with it, and let's just get it over with it.
A lot of the time the finish is well, him finishing.

I'm not sure how this is meant to follow from what I said, really? It seems to be talking about something different.

Not necessarily, no. But one would hope that most people would want to please their sexual partner. There are some people who don't care if their partner enjoys themselves at all, so long as they continue to make themselves sexually available. Of this group of people, do you believe it's a 50:50 male/female split? I think it's unlikely.

I don't know if it's 50:50, I suspect it's probably weighted somewhat toward men. I tend to think that reflects their physiological experience of sex rather than their character, though.

Most people want to enjoy sex, and want their partner to as well. Women though seem more likely to have problems with the former, even if they are with a partner who makes an effort. Whether it's lack of experience, some effect from childbirth or ageing, being unable to relax or being self conscious, or just lower libido, whatever. So for women in that situation, motivations other than an orgasm might be more prominent, like making their partner happy, intimacy, feeling attractive, etc. Maybe they are less likely to seek out selfish sex even if they are selfish people since direct sexual pleasure is less motivating for them.

Most men on the other hand are even in somewhat adverse circumstances to have an orgasm, and that can be pretty motivating even without things like pleasing a partner or intimacy or feeling affirmed. So transactional sex is maybe more appealing even if it isn't the best sex possible for that person.

I'd also say though that people I know who are into transactional sex and hook ups seem to think about it in a different way - both the men and women seem to see each person as mainly responsible for their own experience. They expect themselves to give a good performance, do things that are requested within reason, and be technically proficient. But if the other person doesn't enjoy it for some reason, they see that as being a problem for the other person- they can always stop having that kind of sex if it's not satisfying to them.

It's rather ugly but there is a cold sort of logic to it.

Whether it's lack of experience, some effect from childbirth or ageing, being unable to relax or being self conscious, or just lower libido, whatever.
There's too big a discrepancy between straight women and lesbian women in that study for this to be entirely down to the above. Women who have sex with women have all the above issues.

I tend to think that reflects their physiological experience of sex rather than their character, though.
But all men are physiologically men, why do some care about how their partner experiences sex and others don't? It's a decision, surely. To prioritise themselves over their partner. Some men take pride in being good lovers.

FlyingOink

No, it was in response to a comment on the previous page. I got distracted and didn't refresh before I posted. Sorry.

TehBewilderness
Ah no worries

There's too big a discrepancy between straight women and lesbian women in that study for this to be entirely down to the above. Women who have sex with women have all the above issues.

I don't understand what you are getting at here? I would be surprised if lesbian women didn't have those issues. I don't think those things are about who people have sex with.

But all men are physiologically men, why do some care about how their partner experiences sex and others don't? It's a decision, surely. To prioritise themselves over their partner. Some men take pride in being good lovers.

Some are jerks, and some aren't. Possibly also some are more mature than others.
I think the same is true of women. But because more women are less enthusiastic about sex, maybe fewer engage in sex for selfish reasons.

I'll give you an example, totally fake but maybe clearer -

Say we have 20 men and 20 women. 15 in each group are nice people who are not going to be selfish lovers. But 19 of the men find sexual satisfaction (as opposed to emotional etc) fairly easy. four or five of them might be selfish about sex.

Now, maybe only 12 of the women find sex easy pleasure, and there are eight who are just blase. Those eight might get other things they consider worthwhile about sex, like pleasing a partner or intimacy. But if they are one of the five selfish people, they might not be inclined to go for selfish sex since there won't be much in it for them. So maybe the five selfish women would all be the same ones who like sex, but it could also be they are all the ones who don't. And if you are talking about thousands of people, you will start to see a gap.

Obviously it's more complicated than that, as there can be other reasons than sexual pleasure for selfish sex, among other things. But I hope that illustrates what I'm trying to get at.