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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Male desire/ sexual rights

210 replies

onlydigestivesinthetin · 20/04/2020 10:30

I stumbled across this piece in the Guardian over the weekend: older man bemoaning the fact that his wife no longer wants sex with him, with the implication that this either 'forces' him to have affairs or he will have to leave her in order to have what he sees as his right to a sex life.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/apr/18/my-life-in-sex-my-wife-wants-a-desire-free-old-age-but-i-still-see-her-as-my-sexual-partner

The article and most of the responses reminded me of the judge who declared that it was a husband's fundamental right to have sex with his wife:

www.theguardian.com/law/2019/apr/03/english-judge-says-man-having-sex-with-wife-is-fundamental-human-right

And then of various articles about men rating brothels and the women they abuse in them:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disturbing-sex-work-website-men-20574557

And it made me think of all the autogynophiles abandoning their wives and children to pursue their sexual kink who may, oddly enough, never have sex with anyone else again in their pursuit to make themselves into the object of their desire.

I know this is just feminism 101 – that we live in a society based around testosterone, where the male sexual urge is regarded as sacrosanct and women are still expected to service their male partners' sexual needs. And yes, I fully expect a few women to respond this that they love sex and are always ready for it, any time, any where. But what about the millions of us who can't say that?

I've looked through the Guardian seeking a response that doesn't basically affirm a man's right to have sex and can see very few. There are a couple of clearly feminist responses early on, but after that everyone politely acknowledges that a man has his urges and he needs to express them with another human being. Is the Guardian weeding out anyone who says that sex isn't a human right or is this an indication that the majority of people accept the fundamental right of men to have sex somehow, some way, with anyone they can?

What would you, women of Mumsnet feminism chat, say to the man in the Guardian?

OP posts:
Gronky · 23/04/2020 15:31

I'd add to it that physical and emotional intimacy with another human being, whether you are married to them or not, isn't an object that's handed to you for your consumption.

It was a very simple analogy and I'm very glad that gin isn't as complicated as physical intimacy. I should say that I'm very much a happy spinster.

I ask the question because I've encountered the attitude in a very small number of people (interestingly, both men and women) in relationships that turned sexless who were bemoaning their former partner for selfishly finding someone else to start a relationship that included sexual relations. Their attitude appeared to be that they had a right to this relationship (in the sense that it was entirely their former partner's fault for ending things with them). I didn't explore the issue because I still had to work with them and I'm gifted at unwittingly annoying people. Smile However, I find it a fascinating discussion because I see both desires as equally valid but would like to understand the rationale behind this one.

FlyingOink · 23/04/2020 15:32

Italiangreyhound
I think I should have emphasised the tense more.
I was making a distinction between not fussed before and not fussed afterwards.

If you've just had great sex but you're thinking you would rather have spent the time doing something else then either the sex wasn't that great or the something else is amazing.
OTOH I get that an indifference and unlikeliness to instigate is a different thing entirely, and many relationships see a great deal of this. Generally in the scenario I'm thinking of, afterwards both parties are pleased that they just had sex, though. Not that they'd rather have watched telly.

It's something that that human has free choice about every single time
Yes, but the man in the article just wants it to not be a no every single time, so he pays lip service to the idea.

Reminds me of this www.huffpost.com/entry/man-wife-spreadsheet-sex_n_5605670

Gronky · 23/04/2020 15:34

You tend the garden in the hopes the plants will flourish, but a garden is a complex system in which many surprising things can go wrong....or maybe that's just my incompetent gardening!

I wanted to add that I also really like this analogy but would also like to add that I don't see a sexless relationship (provided both partners are happy) as somehow 'wrong' and would attribute that to societal (mostly patriarchal) pressures.

FlyingOink · 23/04/2020 15:37

Do women feel as entitled to sex as men do? Are women whose partners refuse sex mostly enraged, or mostly insecure?

Is the guy in the article more enraged or more insecure?

I guess that because the letter is edited, we may never know, and we might be reading his (edited) words through our own filter.

Even his indignation might just be fear and insecurity. I personally think he's an arse, and I know that some of what I think about him is sheer conjecture. But also any reading of him as a sympathetic character also relies on some filling in of blanks.

FlyingOink · 23/04/2020 15:39

a sexless relationship (provided both partners are happy)
Yeah but that's not what's being discussed. Obviously if both partners are happy it's no business of anyone's how often they bump uglies.

MimiLaRue · 23/04/2020 15:50

I wanted to add that I also really like this analogy but would also like to add that I don't see a sexless relationship (provided both partners are happy) as somehow 'wrong' and would attribute that to societal (mostly patriarchal) pressures

If neither partner wants sex then its a complete non-issue. Everyone needs to have the relationship thats comfortable for them and in this scenario they are 100% compatible and its noone elses business what they do or dont do in bed.

But thats not what is being discussed. The issue being discussed is when one partner wants sex and the other doesnt. Thats an incompatibility issue.

FlyingOink · 23/04/2020 15:53

To be fair there are societal expectations for straight couples to have sex and have children.
Where it might be considered a patriarchal expectation might be the way an asexual man is perceived compared to an asexual woman.
Maybe it would be harder for a man to discuss with his friends that he's not interested in sex? I don't know.

But again it's a different issue.

FlyingOink · 23/04/2020 15:55

Oh and the difference between how a female virgin versus a male virgin. One is a virtue, the other is a failing.

Unless the female virgin is old in which case she's perceived as useless by patriarchy anyway.

Gronky · 23/04/2020 17:10

FlyingOink, MimiLaRue, my comment about a sexless relationship related to CousinKrispy's analogy, not the initial content. I agree that the pressures on couples to make their relationships sexual is another topic, it was a passing comment.

GenderWang · 23/04/2020 17:43

FlyingOink - is that a male fantasy, the notion of "arrangements" that the wife knows about but that is never discussed? Sounds like a lot of resentment and tension in real life, and I've never knowingly seen it happen.

I have no idea how often this happens, I doubt very often, but I can cite examples from within my wider family and family friends of my parent's generation (born between WW1 and WW2) where there was definitely no resentment or tension as a result.

One example would be of one of my aunts and her husband, who were childhood sweethearts, married young and remained very happily married until her death in her 60's. They had one son but her husband also had a daughter with her best friend, who was married and also had several other children with her own husband.

(Note: there was eventually huge "resentment and tension as a result" in the best friend's marriage but that was due to a husband's reaction rather than a wife's.)

The circumstances were unusual. My aunt had a very debilitating, painful chronic illness that started in her 30's and eventually killed her. Who knows what their sex life, if any, would have been like if she had been well. As it was, she was much too ill most of the time to be at all interested.

Her husband worked full-time in heavy industry and shared the housekeeping and cooking with their son. The son was always in full-time employment, was as much of a "homemaker" as his parents, was happy to stay living in the family home but had a very full life including a long-standing relationship with a woman who did not want children and wanted to live alone.

My aunt and her husband were a lively, happy, sociable couple and there was a close-knit, supportive family unit with my male cousin.

I do not know how my aunt became aware of her husband's affair or if they ever discussed it. She and her best friend tacitly acknowledged it and my aunt was delighted when her best friend told her "in passing" that she was pregnant, my aunt knitted baby clothes for her, etc. and it was understood between them who the father was. (Those were the days before The Pill, when an unplanned pregnancy was a much likelier consequence of an affair.)

The affair lasted many years and only ended when the best friend's husband found out and threatened to kill her. He never suspected the parentage of her youngest child.

My understanding is that the best friend's husband was never a kind or pleasant man and that my aunt was very happy with an "arrangement" that brought happiness to both her husband and her best friend.

My aunt lived on the other side of the country and I know most of this because she and my mother spent at least an hour on the phone to each other every Sunday.

The affair and the parentage of my cousin's half-sister became something of an "open secret" in later years. The best friend died before my aunt and her husband. After my aunt died, her husband never recovered from the loss. Despite being fit and healthy he died less than two years later. My cousin said that the GP told him that he had essentially "died of a broken heart".

I didn't know if my cousin was aware of the existence of his half-sister until his father's funeral, when he introduced me to his half-sister. They explained that they had each known about the other since their late teens, had sought each other out in their twenties and had been friends since then. It was a particularly important friendship for my cousin because he was an only-child.

I think my cousin was about 8 years older than his half-sister. It is a small town and their mothers were worried about the possibility of inadvertent incest so they each told the children when they were old enough to understand.

As far as I am aware, their blood-relationship is still a secret except on a "need to know" basis. Some but not all of the half-sister's siblings were aware of it. Another cousin is aware of it and she finds the whole thing repulsive and reprehensible.

My cousin died childless in his 50's, I met his half-sister again at his funeral and some of these details I learned from her.

Those circumstances are unusual but the pre-existing friendship between "the wife and the mistress" and the fact that there was never any intention to end either marriage seem at least as significant as my aunt's illness and her husband's actions in seeking sex elsewhere. His "male desire" is just part of a bigger story.

The other examples I could cite are all rather different.

Some involve friends of my mother who remained in unhappy marriages to mostly rather horrible men "for the sake of the children", wives who were more than happy for their husbands to be getting their jollies elsewhere rather than using them for sex and raping them.

Others relate more to the other quote below . . .

Is it like the mythical Frenchman and his mistress? Or is it just a fantasy that a man can have a woman on the side without any difficult conversations at any point?

Is it a myth? It is interesting that this is always framed in this way. Why not, "Is it like the mythical Frenchwoman and her lover? Or is it just a fantasy that a woman can have a man on the side without any difficult conversations at any point?"

The other examples I could give are relationships where both parties have had or are having affairs, sometimes very long-standing, and there is a mutual wish to avoid those "difficult conversations".

They would include "live examples" of those sorts of relationships happening right now.

Personally, I would find that sort of relationship very uncomfortable. Being "the other woman" is a doddle by comparison, although it is something I have generally tried to avoid.

Goosefoot · 23/04/2020 17:45

I don't think female virginity these days is put on a pedestal, it's only seen in a slightly less mocking way than male virginity.

Their attitude appeared to be that they had a right to this relationship (in the sense that it was entirely their former partner's fault for ending things with them). I didn't explore the issue because I still had to work with them and I'm gifted at unwittingly annoying people.However, I find it a fascinating discussion because I see both desires as equally valid but would like to understand the rationale behind this one.

Marriage has traditionally been seen as permanent, with divorce, if it was allowed, as a remedy for extreme problems. That still informs many people's view - marriage vows often reflect that for instance.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 23/04/2020 19:03

If you've just had great sex but you're thinking you would rather have spent the time doing something else then either the sex wasn't that great or the something else is amazing.

Who is responsible for making the sex great though? The idea I'm getting from some posters is that they see it as the man's job to provide great sex - apologies if I've misunderstood. For me, if the sex isn't great then that's a fault of both people involved. I don't think one partner bears the responsibility of providing the great sex. I certainly wouldn't be accepting responsibility if my male partner claimed it hadn't been great for him, so I don't expect to blame him if it wasn't great for me.

FlyingOink · 23/04/2020 21:50

Who is responsible for making the sex great though? The idea I'm getting from some posters is that they see it as the man's job to provide great sex - apologies if I've misunderstood. For me, if the sex isn't great then that's a fault of both people involved.

You're quite right, this man's wife should have taken responsibility for her own pleasure, and the fact he's a selfish and entitled lover is neither here nor there.

Hmm

To answer your question, nobody is "responsible" for making sex great, but ideally both parties should be aiming to please or satisfy the other. There's no choreographer or director and marks are not awarded for style and technique.

Also you wouldn't blame your male partner if he used your body to masturbate into? I mean, let's be honest, we are likely talking about the use of the poor wife for his sexual relief rather than mutual exploration and enjoyment. If your partner started using you in ways that suited him but did little for you, would you blame yourself? If I had a partner who did that I'd obviously try to discuss it, but I'd be upset that I'd suddenly been relegated to a toy and that my partner seemingly cared little for my feelings or pleasure.

You might be fortunate enough to be so enamored by your partner that any hamfisted rutting will get you off (and there's a lot to be said for actual romantic love as an aphrodisiac) but generally in a long relationship the rose tinted specs fall off and you're stuck bickering about the washing up. So some attempt at seduction or foreplay or whatever floats your boat is often welcomed.

I can't speak for all women and I can't speak for any straight women but being confident enough to tell someone they need to do something different to please you is nerve-wracking. No matter how the subject is broached, verbally or non-verbally, you run the risk of tears, insecurity, anger, violence, sexual assault, whatever. So much self-esteem can be wrapped up in sexual attractiveness and performance.

Whereas the cultural expectation is that women please men, and men don't seem to have any problem with trying to get their female partners to do what they like. Of course it must happen that a man is unable to explain to a woman that she's not doing it right, but men fake orgasms less often.

Also, as I've mentioned earlier, we can't know that the letter writer's wife didn't try all sorts of things sexually. She might be shagging the neighbour. We will never know. We can't hold her responsible for his assumption that she never enjoyed sex much.

Italiangreyhound · 23/04/2020 23:14

FlyingOink I love the spreadsheet!!!!

TehBewilderness · 23/04/2020 23:16

The letter writer doesn't say if the wife stopped having sex with them after finding out about the affairs he had.
I would not have sex with a man after finding out he was having sex with others, purely out of health care self defense. I would also get checked for STDs/

Goosefoot · 24/04/2020 00:11

Also you wouldn't blame your male partner if he used your body to masturbate into?

There is a huge difference between this and someone saying that they aren't sure their spouse likes sex as much as they do.

I sometimes get the impression that people here think the only pure motivation for sex is wanting to get off, and it has to be completely even in terms of how invested each individual is. Otherwise it's somehow exploitative or objectifying.

If that's what's required for a loving relationship, none can exist.

No one talks about other kinds of relationships in a similar way - we all know that there is all kind of give and take and inequalities and differences. These don't necessarily detract from the relationship, often quite the opposite.

Italiangreyhound · 24/04/2020 00:22

It's interesting that the sex is rated (here) in terms of being good or not. This may well be an issue for anyone but I would think part of it is to do with when you are younger and/or with a new partner etc. Bad sex might be all about 'performance', and good sex might be all about that too.

But in a long term, committed relationship I do think sex is sometimes about so much more.

Connection and re-connection, love, even feelings of ownership in the sense that (assuming no one is having an affair) 'I'm the only one who gets to get this close to him/her' (not in a creepy way!).

When you balance all this and performance into the pot I think sex can be both good and bad, 'performance-rated-well, or poor, consensual and yet also not necessarily something one partner would initiate. And perhaps something one or other partner could have a string of reasons not to want to engage in while also still not being just about performance and not about actually being repulsed by either!

Does that make any sense!

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 24/04/2020 01:06

Goosefoot

I sometimes get the impression that people here think the only pure motivation for sex is wanting to get off and it has to be completely even in terms of how invested each individual is. Otherwise it's somehow exploitative or objectifying*

A lot of the time it is men just wanting to get it off, regardless of what the woman is thinking.She could be really into it,she enjoys it, she loves him,she could have instigated it, sometimes she's not be bothered, but she will be ok with it, and let's just get it over with it.
A lot of the time the finish is well, him finishing.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 24/04/2020 12:13

Also you wouldn't blame your male partner if he used your body to masturbate into?

Would I blame him? I would blame him.for.his part in it. I would also be responsible though for not speaking up and saying that what I wasn't enjoying what he was doing or saying what it was that I did want and if I let that situation happen repeatedly without speaking up then yes, that would be my fault ( of course, I'm not including situations where the woman is in danger).

You might be fortunate enough to be so enamored by your partner that any hamfisted rutting will get you off

Well, no. That's my point. I wouldn't put up with ham fisted rutting as you so delightfully put it.

If a man complained that he wasn't enjoying sex, or that his needs weren't met, would you say that it was his partner at fault? We wouldn't would we? We wouldn't blame the partner of a man who wasn't enjoying satisfying sex, we would blame the.man for not saying something.

exponential · 24/04/2020 15:42

@Thelnebriati This isn't evidence of an innate difference between male and female sexual desire; but it is evidence of the effects of socialisation.
There are two un-evidenced assertions here-whether there is an innate difference-and the effects of socialisation.

Briefly looking at the scientific literature there appears to be quite a few papers describing male female differences in arousal and desire in the direction of women losing it faster than men. It seems to me if it were innate biological differences the effect would be similar in all societies-if the differences were the result of socialisation it would be different in different societies.
Of course there is an interaction between genes and environment. But to claim baldly “it is the result of socialisation” may be stretching evidence too far.

Thelnebriati · 24/04/2020 16:27

None of the behaviours listed in the original comment are consistently found in one sex in different cultures or throughout time, so can't be used as evidence of an innate sex based difference.

Until you can remove the effects of socialisation and have a control group, you cannot assert that X behaviour is the effect of nature.

FlyingOink · 24/04/2020 19:19

If a man complained that he wasn't enjoying sex, or that his needs weren't met, would you say that it was his partner at fault?
Men and women are different, and have different physiology.
If we describe having needs met as having an orgasm (for the sake of argument) then it is physiologically easier for a man to have those needs met.

There are exceptions to every rule, of course.
This is interesting: theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure
Tl;Dr: Men report bad sex as being boring, women report bad sex as being painful.

I sometimes get the impression that people here think the only pure motivation for sex is wanting to get off, and it has to be completely even in terms of how invested each individual is. Otherwise it's somehow exploitative or objectifying.

Not necessarily, no. But one would hope that most people would want to please their sexual partner. There are some people who don't care if their partner enjoys themselves at all, so long as they continue to make themselves sexually available. Of this group of people, do you believe it's a 50:50 male/female split? I think it's unlikely.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 24/04/2020 19:35

Men report bad sex as being boring, women report bad sex as being painful.

Why use such sweeping generalisations? It doesn't have to be painful for sex to just not be doing it for you and, when I was a nurse working in male urology, I treated a lot of men with sex related injuries. I think they would disagree with you that it wasn't painful.

If a man didn't find sex pleasurable would you say the fault lay with his partner?

There are some people who don't care if their partner enjoys themselves at all, so long as they continue to make themselves sexually available. Of this group of people, do you believe it's a 50:50 male/female split?

Well, seeing as you think a man's enjoyment is pretty much guaranteed from the most basic sex then surely it's actually men putting in more effort for their female partners than the other way round?

FlyingOink · 24/04/2020 19:50

Also, slightly off-topic, I remember reading a series of excerpts taken from reviews of prostitutes on punternet and some Canadian sites that are similar.
There was a recurring theme, some men wanted the women to enjoy or pretend to enjoy the sex, whilst others got off on the idea that they were having sex with a woman who found them repulsive and would never have sex with them in any other circumstance.
I think this latter mindset is repugnant, and it's behind a lot of the more violent porn our there, but I also think there are vanishingly few straight women who would have sex with men in a coercive environment and get off on the idea that they were getting to fuck someone who wouldn't otherwise go near them. So I think women like to think their partner finds them attractive at minimum, whereas there is a percentage of men who require submission and nothing else, and a subsection of that percentage who prefer the idea of violating women who they know don't find them attractive.

Like I said, it's off-topic but it's a demonstration of the difference between male and female sexuality at the furthest ends of what one would assume are overlapping curves.

FlyingOink · 24/04/2020 19:51

Why use such sweeping generalisations?

I didn't, it was the "too long;didn't read" summary of the link.

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