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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Robert Webb in the Times

158 replies

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 12/04/2020 09:33

Interesting interview with Robert Webb in the Times. I had no idea he'd been so ill.
He talks about the pile on he got for criticising Mermaids last year and whether he regrets it (no) and says that you can't acknowledge that there are competing rights without being framed as a bigot.
He also says it had real life professional consequences (which I see one of our monitors is already gloating about on twitter)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d63efd46-7982-11ea-b535-542bda4e2a5f?shareToken

OP posts:
CardinalLolzy · 15/04/2021 16:53

Gender is inside you?
Is gender a social construct or not?
Is it separate from gender expression and gender identity?
What does 'gender' connote that isn't covered by 'masculine' and 'feminine'?
What does gender have to do with bodies?
What does gender identity have to do with bodies?
What does gender expression have to do with bodies?
What is a woman? What is a man?
Which sex(es) "matches" which gender(s)? Are 'male' and 'female' genders?
What, specifically, is 'living as a woman' / 'living as a man'?

Answers to all of the above have been constantly avoided (or given contradictory answers) by the people who come here claiming to know better than us about gender. Yet berate us for not being kind enough to understand.

I'm trying very hard to believe there's something more to gender than people performing stereotypes - because surely all of this can't just be about stereotypes - but every time I try to dig deeper I have more questions that don't get answered.

CardinalLolzy · 15/04/2021 16:54

I am a man, and never for a moment felt otherwise
How do you know? How can one ever identify their gender?

ArabellaScott · 15/04/2021 16:57

The answer to your questions, Cardinal, as far as I can see is:

'Don't ask, it's not nice'.

CardinalLolzy · 15/04/2021 16:59

One response to one of them was "that should be obvious". Grin classic

BoreOfWhabylon · 15/04/2021 17:39

@Scepticaltank

This thing reminds me so much of the Chinese medicine craze that seemed to dominate parents groups back in the 90s and 00s.

It made no sense to hear triumphant parents boasting of simmering bags of unidentifiable twigs and pouring the resultant nasty liquid down their children's throats. If you mentioned you had consulted a GP for eczema or such like you were looked at sadly. The twig enthusiasts could not tell you what the bags of twigs contained (written in Chinese) or what the "doctor" in the shop had said about treatment (only spoke Chinese) but somehow this was better than the researched safe GP treatment. The Chinese creams sold eventually turned out to have 6 times the actually steroid levels of the prescribed steroid creams. I was baffled at the almost religious fervour and irrationality. This seems very similar.

See also Indigo Children.

Is Thorn trans?

Helmetbymidnight · 15/04/2021 17:59

No, the Dad of the transchild, Jesse Thorn is a beardy woke American podcaster

There is an Abigail Thorne who is a newly transed you-tuber?

nauticant · 15/04/2021 18:14

That's Philosophy Tube. No relation to Mr and Mrs Thorn.

transbadger · 15/04/2021 22:29

Hello @BoreOfWhabylon

I'm just testing...

🦡🤍🌈

BoreOfWhabylon · 15/04/2021 22:32

Hello @transbadger [waves]

aliasundercover · 15/04/2021 23:36

@transbadger

I laugh each time I read your username:)

transbadger · 15/04/2021 23:39

[quote aliasundercover]@transbadger

I laugh each time I read your username:)[/quote]

Bigot.

GreyhoundG1rl · 16/04/2021 00:06

She can take hormones and go through a "girl's" puberty.
Hmm

HeirloomTomato · 16/04/2021 06:06

It blows my mind that this podcaster is so bloody-minded to pursue this line of questioning with a relatively minor actor from the UK who retweeted an article 3 years ago.

'It's kind of scary for me...' he says.
/eyeroll/

Really? This grown man is scared of a random UK actor's random retweet of a news article from 3 years ago? I honestly don't know how he gets through life every day if he is that sensitive. He should probably stay off Twitter for the good of his mental health. Most women or people of color or disabled people couldn't even get out of bed in the morning if they were that 'scared' of other people's opinions. The level of self-obsessed fragility he has is pathetic.

R0wantrees · 16/04/2021 06:41

Theresa Thorn, "When my eldest child, who I had thought was a boy, began expressing that she felt like a girl at age 5, I sought out picture books to help facilitate conversations in our house about gender and different forms of gender expression. I found several excellent picture books that helped a lot, most of them with a narrative about a child who felt different, faced some adversity, and was ultimately accepted by their community or family. The best part about the books for us was the examples of different kinds of children feeling a variety of different ways about their gender. My daughter was able to say, “That’s like me! That’s how I feel!” when she read about some of these other children."

Dr Katie Alcock (Senior Lecturer Developmental Psychology, Lancaster University) describes the well-established process by which children learn to categorise sex as part of language acquisition.

May 2019
'Young children, reality, sex and gender'
(extract)
"it takes children some time to work out both whether they themselves are a girl or a boy, and that both they and others cannot change sex. Working out which they are themselves happens earlier, and is based in all the studies that have been done on physical appearance and stereotypes. Have a look at what James, aged 3, has to say on the matter:

James is firm that having short hair makes him a boy, and that it also makes other people (and dolls) into boys. My own child aged four was convinced a teenager we knew must be a boy because she had short hair.

Now these days we are all anti-stereotyping and we are convinced we have not raised our children to know what sex stereotypes are. If the only influences on children were things people said directly to them, and especially things we as parents said directly to them, this might work out. But children don’t grow up in a vacuum — they see the other children at nursery, they see toys that other children play with, obviously they hear what other adults than their parents say but most of what children take in is not from people talking to them, but from what they see.

Making generalisations is a very useful skill for a baby or child — if they couldn’t make generalisations, they would never be able to work out that a new cat they saw was in fact a cat, or a new apple was just as good to eat as the last one, or a new car is likely also to go places. Children can work out at a very young age that there are men and women, boys and girls, in the world — it’s probably quite useful for them to work this out in the general scheme of things².

So when they see all the girls at nursery wearing pink and having long hair, well, that’s what girls do! And they also realise, from what people are saying, and from how their parents dress them, what toys they are given, and what toys other children who look like them (same clothes, same hair) what they are supposed to like and do based on what sex they are"

So, based on the idea that girls have long hair and boys have short hair, James is also age-perfect in thinking that when appearance changes, sex changes too. Until the age of about 7 (yes, 7 — in some children it’s older) children think that when something changes its appearance, its underlying reality changes too. This doesn’t just apply to sex, it applies to pretty much everything." (continues)
www.transgendertrend.com/young-children/

Its a great shame that some parents don't seek out evidence-based child development books.

TheBeardedVulture · 16/04/2021 07:16

The transing of gender non conforming little kids makes me furious. My little boy is in Reception and has decided he wants to wear dresses and grow his hair. I think he’s doing it because he has an older sister that he worships and wants to be like (he says he wants the same haircut as her) and that he doesn’t like wearing trousers because he finds them uncomfortable. I’m happy to let him express himself how he likes but I did check he understood it won’t transform him into a girl.

What worries me is other people making assumptions about him because of his clothing choices and treating him differently because of it.

PenguindreamsofDraco · 16/04/2021 07:58

I just went to buy his How not to be a Boy book. Amused to see the first review of it quoted on Amazon is by JKR Grin

Mumteedum · 16/04/2021 09:35

Can anyone point me to clear examples of OJ's misogyny? I don't doubt I agree with many of you in here. I can't abide him and his wrong think witch hunting but a close friend is a total fan based on his books on working class etc. He doesn't believe OJ could be against women. I can see it via twitter etc but I'd love to be able to give a specific example without having to go into long twitter threads etc.

Melroses · 16/04/2021 09:55

'It's kind of scary for me...' he says.
/eyeroll/

That tells us what it was all about really.

MichelleofzeResistance · 16/04/2021 10:04

A good one to start with is his outrage as a gay man at the suggestion that he should be sexually inclusive of biologically female people who identify as men, which he calls (rightly) homophobic. But at the same time, he is adamant that female homosexual people have no right to the same boundary he insists upon as a gay man, and must be sexually inclusive of all biologically male people who identify as women.

Entirely sex based double standards. Which is ironic as he would probably tell you he thinks he doesn't believe sex is binary or really a Thing.

Mumteedum · 16/04/2021 10:24

But has he written in this subject or do you only really see the bigger picture if you cross reference with his twitter feed?

nauticant · 16/04/2021 10:29

In my view it's more a pattern of behaviour thing. So harder to pin down in concise terms.

RabbitOfCaerbannog · 16/04/2021 10:37

@Mumteedum

But has he written in this subject or do you only really see the bigger picture if you cross reference with his twitter feed?
You might find this summary helpful. It's useful to see it in the context of what left wing men think liberal feminism allows them to support. So sex work is work, transwomen are women, lesbians who won't sleep with transwomen are transphobes, second wave and GC feminists are TERFs and can be written off regardless of the work they've put in for marginalised groups over many years. See also his treatment of Suzanne Moore while she was still at the Guardian. All of these things form a pattern of behaviour which are perceived by many women as misogynistic. Put it this way, he doesn't seem to bothered that most of his views set him at odds with a large group of middle aged and older women for whom he clearly has very little respect and indeed is happy to see women amongst them lose their jobs because they disagree with him about material reality.

uncommongroundmedia.com/left-wing-misogyny-back-with-a-vengeance/

www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-Guardian-s-trans-rights-civil-war-rumbles-on

Then there's his tweet about "broody lesbians".

"The point is that these are complicated relationships and Jones’s quip about “broody lesbians” was pounced on because its patronising. Patronising women is his forté. If you don’t agree with him, he blocks you and calls you transphobic. Or a centrist. His mission is to be always right even when he is insufferably wrong. So yes today a lot of people pointed out wombs were not for hire (to be fair he was not talking about surrogacy) but also that transwomen don’t have wombs. Is that a cruel thing to say?"

suzannemoore.substack.com/p/owen-jones-and-the-twitter-baby

RabbitOfCaerbannog · 16/04/2021 10:40

Your friend may believe that all of those things are fine because "liberal feminism". My view is they expose a rich seam of misogyny for which Lib feminism provides cover.

Mumteedum · 16/04/2021 10:49

Thanks @RabbitOfCaerbannog (excellent name btw). I just really object to this awful dichotomy if right or wrong, in or out, no discussion, cancelling... I found those articles that surfaced a while ago around the idea of purity spirals really interesting.

Oj is the worst kind of left wing politics. Utterly self righteous and no room for discussion at all. It's very 'student politics' to me. Reminds me of some insufferable idiots at university from my era. Ill informed and just shout down anyone with another point of view. a world like this is very unhealthy.

MichelleofzeResistance · 16/04/2021 10:53

If I remember right, the outrage at the being inclusive as a gay man was during a television interview?

He hasn't created articles with this specific focus in which he has laid all this out in clear, straightforward terms. Not even he is quite that convinced enough of his own rightness to evidence it that irrefutably. But it all fits within a consistent context of presentation and comment via social media, interview and articles.