Robert Webb in the Times

[JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown]

Interesting interview with Robert Webb in the Times. I had no idea he'd been so ill.
He talks about the pile on he got for criticising Mermaids last year and whether he regrets it (no) and says that you can't acknowledge that there are competing rights without being framed as a bigot.
He also says it had real life professional consequences (which I see one of our monitors is already gloating about on twitter)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d63efd46-7982-11ea-b535-542bda4e2a5f?shareToken

Some girls have penises."

"I'm a girl with a penis."

"Better chop it off then."

Ah yes... I get it now...

The inconsistency doesn't seem a bother, does it.

@andyoldlabour

Someone pointed out on the Jesse Thorn Twitter thread, that having a trans child is the latest fashion accessory. I fully agree with that analogy.

I think if Absolutely Fabulous was being made today, Edina would be desperate for Saffy to be trans.

I do think it could be used by some to signal how "progressive" they are

I totally agree, but it actually screams the opposite. It sounds like Jesse Thorn couldn't deal with the idea of having an effeminate son and was more comfortable with the special status of being parent to a trans child. Everything in this thread is about justification and reverse-engineering evidence to support their decisions. It says so much more about the parents than the child.

It sounds like Jesse Thorn couldn't deal with the idea of having an effeminate son and was more comfortable with the special status of being parent to a trans child

i think its more that he genuinely believes - and so do a lot of people- that effeminate men ARE women

It says so much more about the parents than the child

totally agree. kindergarden, fgs!

When I started work back in the seventies, there was a highly intelligent bloke in my office, who everyone thought was gay, simply because of the way he spoke. He wasn't, he had girlfriends, but he had been brought up by two aunts from a very early age after his parents tragically died, so his mannerisms were not what you would call "BLOKEY".
I daresay, if he had been a youngster at school in these times, then there may well have been a move to consider him "trans".

@Helmetbymidnight

It sounds like Jesse Thorn couldn't deal with the idea of having an effeminate son and was more comfortable with the special status of being parent to a trans child

i think its more that he genuinely believes - and so do a lot of people- that effeminate men ARE women

Which is also pretty much the opposite of progressive, of course.

How the hell did we get to this point? We were making so much progress.

We still had to (have to) be on guard all the time. Every new care situation (camp, sports, babysitter, friends' parents) had to get a briefing. We had to check every room for jerks. Because being misgendered, or forced to explain yourself is traumatic for a young kid.

Not specifically about this child; I want to make a more general observation based on how I see that statement.

So a child that might have been uncomfortable with people commenting on her/his unusual choice of clothes is now in the even more difficult situation of being uncomfortable when anyone finds out her/his sex. All they’ve done is to replace one uncomfortable situation with another.

My personal opinion is that a child would have had a better learning experience if she/he had parents who fully supported her/him in their clothing and activity choices and intervened strongly on behalf of their child whenever anyone interfered or bullied them.

@nauticant

Mrs Thorn expresses regret that she delayed faciliating the transition of her child and it didn't happen until the child was 5 years old:

And it was a significant setback because our daughter could have been living as her authentic self much sooner if she hadn’t had to first convince her parents that she is who she is. So, there’s some guilt there, for me.

Self-determination for trans child in this case = parents telling them from kindergarten that girls can have penises, they're gender non-conforming (I.e. like loads of other kids in an unremarkable sense), the things they did and liked didn't make sense, but they do if they're a girl, parents informing people they come into contact with of the child's gender so they treat them as such. No wonder the child thinks they're a girl. I'm pretty familiar with five year olds and most of them have learnt a hell of a lot of what they know about the world from their parents. It makes the kid sound like Yoda - some wise old sage who was just waiting for the parents to catch up.

Like PPs I would also highly recommend Robert Webb's book - How not to be a boy

It makes the kid sound like Yoda - some wise old sage who was just waiting for the parents to catch up.

That's well put, and it seems to be really common.

Comments from the OJ camp are rather telling.
On the plus side that's another book Mumsnet 'radicalisation' has alerted me to. I have already read, "How not to be a boy" and it's good. Will have to reread now I have a boy of my own.

There's so much able-bodied privilege in Thorn's thread. He just does not understand what it means to be on a lifelong medical pathway, with the daily grind of appointments and medications and side effects and management, and the seriousness of putting a child down that road on the basis of a childish comment in the bath. It's all just shrugged off as "Surgery? Sure!" He has no conception of what he's actually doing to that poor child.

There's so much to unpack psychologically speaking from this tweet in that thread:

She hated getting haircuts and always wanted her hair long like my wife's, but we just figured kids hate haircuts. She loved The Jungle Book, especially the part where Baloo the bear dresses up in a hula skirt, but what kid doesn't love that?

Baloo is dressing up as an orangutan to dupe the orangutans that he's just like them, whilst the orangutans sing about wanting to be just like the humans.

Loving this is taken as a retrospective sign their child is transgender. A scene where a male bear is literally posing as a female orangutan to get something they want, I mean... what other comparisons could be drawn from it...

@SecondGentleman

There's so much able-bodied privilege in Thorn's thread. He just does not understand what it means to be on a lifelong medical pathway, with the daily grind of appointments and medications and side effects and management, and the seriousness of putting a child down that road on the basis of a childish comment in the bath. It's all just shrugged off as "Surgery? Sure!" He has no conception of what he's actually doing to that poor child.

It's these very early transition stories, with parents planning to put their kids on puberty blockers when they're still only five that give credence to concerns about Munchausen syndrome by proxy.

Am I getting this right anyway? Thorn had Mitchell and Webb on to talk about their work, etc. He then shoehorned in a bit about Webb's comments about Mermaids. And following that, he made a HUGE thread on twitter to follow up, but all about his trans child, amplified by Owen Jones.

Seems rather self-serving. And just weird. And like he had to call in the cavalry to reassure him he's right and good.

Hmmmnnn...

And following that, he made a HUGE thread on twitter to follow up, but all about his trans child, amplified by Owen Jones.

I think he made his thread about his kid first.

I think Webb handled it brilliantly. Polite but adamant. Hardly a crumble as the Sanctimonious Morph is trying to spin it.

That said, I'd advise Webb to do his Twitter research before doing podcast interviews, then he won't get ambushed by weirdo new religionists.

Agree Katy.

There are a lot of these podcasters around now - it has become a thing since lockdown. I suppose the advantage and disadvantage is that they are not tied to traditional broadcasters.

It is probably always worth looking at what they are flogging.

This one was pretty well known beforehand and is broadcast on National Public Radio across the States as well. So unfortunately it's not just a weirdo in a shed. It has previously had crossovers with podcasters I really admire so I've got everything crossed they don't wade in.

Awful that RW is being shat on by the likes of OJ and Thorn.

I will never understand how it can possibly be harmful to allow a child to just be and wear what they want without labelling and affirming whatever they say as a pre-schooler, and it's less harmful to tell them there is something physically wrong with them, point them in a direction that will forever other them (however much they push for acceptance) and put them on a pathway to lifelong medication and procedures that will also mean they never experience and enjoy sex the way other people do and will never be able to become a biological parent. That is actually the decision being made when they go along with something said by a child with zero understanding of anything that's ahead. It's astonishing.

Man's just tweeted this:

'I love jewelry, antiques, fashion, theater and Almodovar movies. I am a man, and never for a moment felt otherwise. My kid loves monsters, baseball, Jurassic Park and Captain Underpants. She is a girl and never for a moment felt otherwise. Gender is inside you.'

In what way is she a girl?

According to some inner feeling? Okay.

What does it mean to feel 'like a girl'?

Anyone?

SunsetBeetch what a brilliant post. Agree 100%

The angriest people, in my experience, are generally those who feel guilty or worried they might be getting something wrong and can’t bear anything that challenges their position. They can often lash out at whoever is nearest. I think that’s exactly what we’re dealing with here

Also feel like these parents are trying to recruit as many others as possible to make themselves feel more comfortable with what they have done.

Indeed. 😳

This thing reminds me so much of the Chinese medicine craze that seemed to dominate parents groups back in the 90s and 00s.

It made no sense to hear triumphant parents boasting of simmering bags of unidentifiable twigs and pouring the resultant nasty liquid down their children's throats. If you mentioned you had consulted a GP for eczema or such like you were looked at sadly. The twig enthusiasts could not tell you what the bags of twigs contained (written in Chinese) or what the "doctor" in the shop had said about treatment (only spoke Chinese) but somehow this was better than the researched safe GP treatment. The Chinese creams sold eventually turned out to have 6 times the actually steroid levels of the prescribed steroid creams. I was baffled at the almost religious fervour and irrationality. This seems very similar.