Robert Webb in the Times

[JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown]

Interesting interview with Robert Webb in the Times. I had no idea he'd been so ill.
He talks about the pile on he got for criticising Mermaids last year and whether he regrets it (no) and says that you can't acknowledge that there are competing rights without being framed as a bigot.
He also says it had real life professional consequences (which I see one of our monitors is already gloating about on twitter)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d63efd46-7982-11ea-b535-542bda4e2a5f?shareToken

@AnyOldPrion

I didn't listen to the whole interview, but the end section was an uncomfortable listen - it seems that the need for external acceptance/validation of gender nonconformity goes beyond the trans individual.

This is the whole point/problem, isn’t it.

From what Jesse asked, he was basically saying

“When my child was diagnosed as trans, I was so ignorant on the subject that I relied on those charities, who reassured me that it was all fine and that I was doing the right thing.

But if you are correct and those charities were wrong, that means we might have done harm to our child. We can’t afford for them to be wrong.”

And perhaps add in there a tinge of “There it was in the back of my mind the whole time. A feeling that this wasn’t quite right and I didn’t listen and now I’m so far invested that any challenge is almost unbearable.”

If he was fully confident that he’d done the right thing and that it was all fine, then Robert Webb’s opinion would mean nothing to him and he would dismiss it easily.

The fact that this is so emotive for Jesse Thorne is very suggestive of cognitive dissonance. He was basically asking Robert Webb to take it back, presumably because he both has some respect for Robert Webb’s opinion and at the same time can’t afford to.

I wonder if we will ever reach a place where these heavily invested parents will stop being angry with the world and start being angry with the doctors. I guess that will depend on whether their children end up living long and prosperous lives in their medicalised identity, or whether it all falls apart.

The angriest people, in my experience, are generally those who feel guilty or worried they might be getting something wrong and can’t bear anything that challenges their position. They can often lash out at whoever is nearest. I think that’s exactly what we’re dealing with here.

Great post.

@OldCrone

The interviewer kept talking about 'gender nonconforming kids' as though they were something other than completely unremarkable, normal children. How have we got to a place where children who are gender nonconforming need 'support' from specialist charities?

Exactly.

And Webb knows all about gender stereotyping. Your first reaction of someone telling you they knew something was wrong in kindergarten, would be a swift, almost involuntary appraisal of the parent.

@nauticant

Predictably Owen Jones retweets hoping for a pile-on:

twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1382428989386588162

So far he's attracted some bigoteers but he's not yet getting the traction with this one. It seems a number of those who listened didn't like what they heard.

This is absolutely hilarious but grim as anything at the same time.

@OldCrone

The interviewer kept talking about 'gender nonconforming kids' as though they were something other than completely unremarkable, normal children. How have we got to a place where children who are gender nonconforming need 'support' from specialist charities?

I wonder about this too OldCrone

The interviewers child came out as trans when they were in kindergarten

But obviously questioning the nature of that support would fall under the broad umbrella of conversion therapy.

@OldCrone

The interviewer kept talking about 'gender nonconforming kids' as though they were something other than completely unremarkable, normal children. How have we got to a place where children who are gender nonconforming need 'support' from specialist charities?

Also this! Why on earth would you pathologise perfectly normal behaviour in this way .

I think this interview is going to open a few more eyes.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

The interviewers child came out as trans when they were in kindergarten

Yeah that's...ummmm...interesting?

It's a family business:

thepridela.com/2019/06/la-mom-writes-picture-book-breaking-down-gender-identity-for-trans-kids/

Mrs Thorn expresses regret that she delayed faciliating the transition of her child and it didn't happen until the child was 5 years old:

And it was a significant setback because our daughter could have been living as her authentic self much sooner if she hadn’t had to first convince her parents that she is who she is. So, there’s some guilt there, for me.

[quote nauticant]It's a family business:

thepridela.com/2019/06/la-mom-writes-picture-book-breaking-down-gender-identity-for-trans-kids/[/quote]
Ah!

"Navigating gender can be confusing for anyone."

Yeah no shit. It would probably help immensely if we could have tight definitions of things...

[quote nauticant]It's a family business:

thepridela.com/2019/06/la-mom-writes-picture-book-breaking-down-gender-identity-for-trans-kids/[/quote]
'Biz and I co-authored a parenting humor book in 2017 (Countryman Press) called “You’re Doing A Great Job! 100 Ways You’re Winning At Parenting.”'

And again with @AnyOldPrion's great point about doubt, and their desire for constant validation regarding the decision they've made for their child.

@nauticant

Mrs Thorn expresses regret that she delayed faciliating the transition of her child and it didn't happen until the child was 5 years old:

And it was a significant setback because our daughter could have been living as her authentic self much sooner if she hadn’t had to first convince her parents that she is who she is. So, there’s some guilt there, for me.

And the next sentence:

Another difficulty is just that although I am a girl and my daughter is a girl, I will never know what it’s like to be a trans girl.

She admits she doesn't know what it's like to be a trans girl, but she accepts at face value that her 5-year-old child who she 'thought was a boy' knew what it was like to 'feel like a girl'.

'Biz and I co-authored a parenting humor book in 2017 (Countryman Press) called “You’re Doing A Great Job! 100 Ways You’re Winning At Parenting.”'

This is a variation of the "guilt" thing Dr David Bell was talking about in the Dysphoric documentary.

That has a consequence of relieving the parents of guilt. So the parents may even join up and say: "yes, we support you in being trans" for unconscious reasons. Not because they're bad people, but for reasons they themselves don't understand.

But again, the services don't question that. And the parents who do question it, may have real concerns, are othered. So these tyrannical organisations, which do not see themselves as tyrannical, are to some extent unwittingly exploiting the vulnerability of parents.

Maybe guilt wasn't the reason they started on this path in this case.

But either way, once you're on it, added guilt locks you in.

It's striking that there's no mention of the possibility that their child might be gay anywhere in the piece, neither in relation to their own child nor any of the other families they're writing for.

Oh and Owen Jones is a despicable, nasty little bully. But he gets to give his "Good Ally" badge another polish I suppose.

@SunsetBeetch

Oh and Owen Jones is a despicable, nasty little bully. But he gets to give his "Good Ally" badge another polish I suppose.

My impression is that Robert Webb is a very popular man. Sensible and fair. And committed.

Sneering that he 'crumbled' may not have the effect Jones thinks.

Robert Webb is a decent, thoughtful man. Owen Jones is, well, Owen Jones.

Skimming through this without looking at Thorn's twitter or listening to the interview and I just knew that it would be a little boy 'coming out' as a girl. Because if it was the other way round - a girl wanting to wear trousers and play with cars and construction toys - it just wouldn't have the same amount of dramatic fanfare about it. Which just shows what bollocks 'gender' is.

I'm glad this thread was bumped. Just gained some massive respect for Robert Webb.

🦡🌈🤍

I just popped on Twitter and saw some of the hate Robert was getting. It sickens me. He has my support.

His book "How not to be a boy" is brilliant badger

This thread by Thorn is illuminating,:

twitter.com/JesseThorn/status/1377287133921116160?s=19

Excerpts:

When she started kindergarten, my wife was bathing her. An adult friend of ours had just come out as trans, and my wife mentioned that not all girls have vaginas and not all boys have penises.

Why would you tell your small child that?! Why?!

Talking to trans friends, I learned why it's so important to clearly tell kids that private parts don't determine gender. Little kids often don't know what "trans" is, so they just assume... well... that they're broken. Give kids some language and they can tell you who they are.

She socially transitioned in kindergarten. She had girl play clothes already that she wore at home when she felt like it, but my wife took her to Target to pick out some clothes. She chose a pink and purple My Little Pony dress.

We still had to (have to) be on guard all the time. Every new care situation (camp, sports, babysitter, friends' parents) had to get a briefing. We had to check every room for jerks. Because being misgendered, or forced to explain yourself is traumatic for a young kid.

When she enters puberty, she'll start taking a pill that prevents testosterone from changing her body. This treatment is safe and reversible, and is also used for kids with "precocious puberty" (puberty that starts too early).

Trans kids take hormone blockers because while stated gender identities are stable starting from the time kids can express them, a ten or eleven-year-old's brain is still growing by leaps and bounds. So long-term decisions about bodies are postponed a bit.

When our kid is in her teens, she'll decide how she feels about her body. She can do nothing and have a "boy's" puberty. She can take hormones and go through a "girl's" puberty. When she's a young adult, she can (if she choses) have surgical interventions.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Wow.

And miraculously the kid turned out to be trans. Jesus Christ. And he said both his kids are "gender non-conforming".

Funny that.

@QuentinWinters

His book "How not to be a boy" is brilliant badger

Thanks @QuentinWinters. I'm off to check it out now.

🦡🌈🤍