Hungary's Orban reversing self-ID

[midcenturylegs]

Hungary's far-right prime minister Viktor Orban has moved to strip away trans rights as one of his very first acts after his pandemic power grab. On Monday, the Hungarian parliament agreed to extend Orban's already strong powers by granting him the right to rule by decree indefinitely, meaning he no longer needs to consult other lawmakers before making decisions. His powers came into effect on Monday morning, and by the evening his deputy Zsolt Semjén had introduced a new bill which, if passed, will replace "gender" with "birth sex" in all legal documents issued in the country. The effect of this is that Hungarian citizens will be unable to change their gender legally, a significant rollback of rights in the eastern European country. Since data in official documents such as ID cards, driving licenses and passports are taken from the civil registry, the change would affect these as well. The explanatory memorandum of the bill states that current legislation does not define "gender" as it is determined biologically, adding: "The gender entered into the civil registry is based on facts determined by doctors, declared by the registry." It further states: "Given that completely changing one's biological gender is impossible, it is necessary to lay it down in law that it cannot be changed in the civil registry either.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/04/01/hungary-viktor-orban-trans-rights-bill-rule-decree-coronavirus-transphobia-gender-zsolt-semjen/

Should add that's the text from the article, not mine.

It takes a dictator to do this?

Can't find an alternate article to this; www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/01/viktor-orban-ditches-mayor-plan-amid-claims-of-coronavirus-power-grab

It's so disappointing that the right wing are the only ones stopping this. I think that this will lead to increased support for them, and decreased support for the left

So he is stopping people legally changing gender?

Good news.

I can't bring myself to welcome this, given the context. Orban is a tyrant and I can't see how Hungary can stay in the EU if this carries on.

I'd rather we reverted to recognising only sex, not gender, after a period of reasoned debate in which minds were changed and the change of policy became a mainstream view.

Or recognising sex and gender , because gender identity is clearly important to some people and for many, the ability to express that is problematic and it shouldn't be

Like others I also view this as a negative. It provides trans activists with propanganda: "give trans people their demands or things end up like in Hungary" and "looks who's also on the gender critical side" and also it could lead to persecution of vulnerable people. Just because some of them have unreasonable demands doesn't mean that I'm happy to see their lives be made harder.

I want women to be recognised as a biological sex class which men can't identify into as much as the next person, but not like this. This is horrible. As a pp said we need a reasonable period of civil debate in which we find a way to make space for both women and transwomen, to create a world in which we can all feel safe. We need a democratic resolution so that we can all move forwards together without any more fighting. I don't want anyone having their existing rights removed by an aggressive dictatorship, even if I disagree that those rights should have been granted to begin with. Nothing good has ever come from that.

This is the problem with the left welcoming every batshit ideology going. People don't like it, people can recognise reality and will vote for the only other option, even if they have to hold their nose to do it. The right wing know this, they will capitalise on it. It's been very obvious to everyone for a while now that the west is facing a rise in popularism, and what does the left do? Race further away from the centre, giving far right parties the opportunity to gain support.

I'm conflicted about the news. I agree with getting rid of 'gender' and recording sex accurately. But I don't support this political party or it's leader.

I don't want a tyrant to make this go away, I just want to be able to debate it openly.

I don't welcome this approach as it's a step far too far back. However I lay much of the blame on the left and their denial of reality for it happening.

I've long thought the push from the militant transactivists will do more harm for the transgender community in the long run and this is evidence of that.

I don't want a tyrant to make this go away, I just want to be able to debate it openly.

This!!!

Orban is not a friend of women. Or minorities. Or anyone who doesn't neatly fit into the narrow fold of what's acceptable to a bona fide modern fascist dictator - newly ruling his country by decree for time indefinite.

I'm GC. But this is not a welcome change! It's a cause for alarm. And a "first, they came for the ..." moment. (To be fair: we've long since been at the "then" stage on this one - first, Orban came for the Roma!)

I, for one, an not willing to sacrifice everything else I have ever believed in for a single issue!

Victor Orban is a fascist. And Victor Orban belongs on the rubbish heap of history - gender policy aside!

I'm gender critical, but there's no cheering from me, either. If there's a less open country in Europe than Hungary, I can't call it to mind. It's not just a matter of trans rights, but independent judiciary, a non-clientilistic media, open-minded academia... and with a major demographic problem, yes, mere reproductive freedoms for women are not going to be a priority, either. Civil society, institutions (justice and media) and democracy protect us all, and without them we can all go down together. As much as I would like to roll back the overreach we have seen from the TRA agenda, Orban's agenda is not a reasonable price to pay, by any stretch of the imagination!

It's like another thread that's currently active here--in America, the state of Idaho just declared that trans-girls have to stay out of girls' athletics in schools. But that's a very conservative state, and this isn't coming from any general feminist attitude. Come to think of it, in the UK it's the Conservatives who are least likely to push the trans agenda, and the left that's gone 100% woke.

TRAs said "No debate"
Are they happy now?

This is what happens when there is no debate.

Medusa
The overreach we have seen from the TRA agenda
Exactly this^^

It was the Morning Star who aligned with GC truth.
What strange times we live in.

Penis news should never be used as a source of unbiased journalism on the topic and neither, alas, should the Guardian.

However, I can’t imagine Orbán is a friend of women or trans women, though he is no fool, and knows which populist policies will be welcome. The left’s overreach on trans rights has left it unsupported by the general public, we’ve all be shouting from the sidelines saying the same, and were told to fuck of and join the tories.

Ok, so a country has gone full Gender Critical, and an American state is making sports fair at last.

Seeing as we have all been told that suicide is what every transgender person will commit if they don't get full validation, surely the lack of suicides in these places will prove that these were emotive lies and blackmail?

I'm not right wing. However, surely the rights of right wing women and girls matter just as much as the rights of left wing and centre women? Feminism is for all women, regardless of their political views.

I don't like this bloke, and I wish he'd fuck off. I just wanted to make a general point stating that I support the rights of all women. Feminism doesn't belong to the left.

surely the lack of suicides in these places will prove that these were emotive lies and blackmail?

Good point. Though I would imagine that prick news etc will just make up the stats.

Ok, so a country has gone full Gender Critical, and an American state is making sports fair at last.

There's nothing critical - gender or otherwise - about what's happening in Hungary.

A country has firmly set itself on course for fully-fledged fascism. This is not a test lab for what happens to TRAs under adverse conditions. It's not a sociology student's PhD research. It's an actual country full of actual humans. Some of whom are already being persecuted or intimidated into silence by an increasingly terrifying regime. Nothing will be learned from this - except maybe that our complacency around our freedoms and rights is painfully naive.

• It's not a sociology student's PhD research.•

Am pretty certain there are at least 10 draft queer theory papers being written on the topic.. all from the perspective of the cruel fascism of biological constraints.

hungary chooses a biological fact over someone's feeling.