Hungary's Orban reversing self-ID

[midcenturylegs]

Hungary's far-right prime minister Viktor Orban has moved to strip away trans rights as one of his very first acts after his pandemic power grab. On Monday, the Hungarian parliament agreed to extend Orban's already strong powers by granting him the right to rule by decree indefinitely, meaning he no longer needs to consult other lawmakers before making decisions. His powers came into effect on Monday morning, and by the evening his deputy Zsolt Semjén had introduced a new bill which, if passed, will replace "gender" with "birth sex" in all legal documents issued in the country. The effect of this is that Hungarian citizens will be unable to change their gender legally, a significant rollback of rights in the eastern European country. Since data in official documents such as ID cards, driving licenses and passports are taken from the civil registry, the change would affect these as well. The explanatory memorandum of the bill states that current legislation does not define "gender" as it is determined biologically, adding: "The gender entered into the civil registry is based on facts determined by doctors, declared by the registry." It further states: "Given that completely changing one's biological gender is impossible, it is necessary to lay it down in law that it cannot be changed in the civil registry either.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/04/01/hungary-viktor-orban-trans-rights-bill-rule-decree-coronavirus-transphobia-gender-zsolt-semjen/

Urgh. This isn't at all how I want to see these changes happen. It has to be fair, transparent and democratic. This is the opposite of that. I don't think it's helpful at all to be honest.

Well I'm grateful for small mercies. Right, left, centre, I really don't care. If it starts a trend, of sorts, that will hopefully end the grip of this horrid ideology, then I'm relieved. If I'm honest, after witnessing both Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network promote trans awareness day to CHILDREN, telling them to be "authentically you", I'm just glad to see ANYONE make a stand.

This is more fake news by Pink News.

Hungary does not have self ID and has never had it.

Orban has been the prime minister of Hungary for the last decade - it's a country that doesn't provide state funding for gender studies because it's not scientific. The new legislation, which has been in the pipeline for months, looks like it just strengthens existing legislation about gender identity not being a replacement for biological sex.

Orban, like most world leaders, has used extreme powers in the last few weeks and yes it's more likely that dictatorial leaders like him will want to keep them.

But this yet another untrue story by Pink News for clicks.

I think there are only seven countries in the world that have self ID (although California also has it):

Malta
Belgium
Ireland
Norway
Portugal
Denmark
Argentina.

And in Norway and Denmark there's been talk about ending it in the last few months and the issue could become an election issue in their next elections, 2021 and 2023 respectively.

And Canada, surely?

If Norway or Denmark changes course that might have an impact on what other countries do. Hungary, no.

He is a fascist though.

Ah.. I did wonder why it was just PNews and the Guardian 'reporting' on it. Am stupidly gullible. Searched again and have found nothing reputable elsewhere.

I was shocked at the Twitter responses to the PN post. I've no idea how bots work but there were dozens of anime profiles responding with 'Based' and 'Redpilled' and 'Haha'.. real anti-LGB sentiment too. It made me feel quite ill.

yes there never was self ID in Hungary but it doesnt make what he's doing any less abhorent. He's hugely homophobic and misogynstic. LGB people will suffer under his regime - indeed they already are suffering

I dont want Self ID but I dont want this fascist twat either

yes there never was self ID in Hungary but it doesnt make what he's doing any less abhorent. He's hugely homophobic and misogynstic.

Indeed. Below a snippet from last year re. Orban on women. Management summary: keep them barefoot and pregnant in order to outbreed them dirty immigrants!

I'm dead serious when I call him a bona fide fascist!

www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/10/viktor-orban-no-tax-for-hungarian-women-with-four-or-more-children

Any lobby group with a brain knows, the further you force the pendulum in one direction, the harder and further you make the swing back.

Oh I don't know. I have a theory - its called the 'Knicker Elastic Theory' (TM Lordfrontpaw).

Push so hard one way and there is a backlash when you go too far, and it snaps back to worse/better than before.

The pandering of the Left and Centre-Left around the world to Identity politics and all sorts of batshit crazy SJW pet causes, has and will continue to fuel the move towards more extreme right-wing political parties.

As said by another poster, I want the freedom to openly discuss the pitfalls and drawbacks pushed by trans extremism, not to have fascist leaders enact policies that make the lives of women, LGB and trans people difficult and dangerous.

Orban is bloody terrifying.
He isn’t gender critical, in so far as we know he thinks about gender, it seems to be AOK by him as the age old enforcing mechanism for patriarchy. So women, LGB people, trans people will all suffer for it. This is very scary and I hope the EU will be acting against him (I don’t know what their options are but they can’t do nothing).

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/02/hungary-to-end-legal-recognition-of-trans-people-amid-covid-19-crisis

Previous thread on gender studies in Hungary:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3457603-gender-study-ban

I will never be glad for fascism.

Never.

Not a good thing in any way. This regime is not concerned about the rights of women, gay rights, or actually any human rights. I probably agree with many fascists re biological reality, no doubt also that grass is green, water is wet & beating someone to a pulp is dangerous for their health. We need the left and centre to provide a lead in this, not fascist tyrants.

@GeordieTerf
It's so disappointing that the right wing are the only ones stopping this. I think that this will lead to increased support for them, and decreased support for the left

I don’t understand your comment... you are sad that your views are being stuck up for, but wish your views were being stood up for by a group that has expressed they are not going to stand up for your views? Party politics, and a left/right-black/white divide clearly demonstrated by that comment of yours. The left doesn’t want you or appreciate your way of thinking. They have literally told you they don’t want you voting for them if your thinking is “wrong”. What more can it take to get it through to you?

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

I can't bring myself to welcome this, given the context. Orban is a tyrant and I can't see how Hungary can stay in the EU if this carries on.

Does a country have to collectively pretend sex isn’t real and is just a concept that people can change whenever they want to be a member of the EU then? Maybe it’s a good thing Brexit happened. I certainly don’t want citizens in my country to be regulated by that sort of rule.

@CheriLittlebottom

This is the problem with the left welcoming every batshit ideology going. People don't like it, people can recognise reality and will vote for the only other option, even if they have to hold their nose to do it.

Right.

@veryboredtoday

I don't welcome this approach as it's a step far too far back. However I lay much of the blame on the left and their denial of reality for it happening.
I've long thought the push from the militant transactivists will do more harm for the transgender community in the long run and this is evidence of that.

Right.

@DrLadybits

Penis news should never be used as a source of unbiased journalism on the topic and neither, alas, should the Guardian.

However, I can’t imagine Orbán is a friend of women or trans women, though he is no fool, and knows which populist policies will be welcome. The left’s overreach on trans rights has left it unsupported by the general public, we’ve all be shouting from the sidelines saying the same, and were told to fuck of and join the tories.

Right.

And people are lamenting the left. What has the left done for you lately? Apart from shouting at you, demeaning you and telling you your opinions aren’t worth anything? And people still want to cling onto the left because they think the right is bad. There’s one side hell bent on throwing women around the globe under the bus, and it isn’t the right, right now. But people clamber to be “right on” and right and so continue to cling desperately onto something that isn’t likely to happen any time soon. Because they’re so worried that they won’t be seen as right if they’re not left. Puzzling.

We need the left and centre to provide a lead in this, not fascist tyrants.

Exactly.

There’s one side hell bent on throwing women around the globe under the bus, and it isn’t the right, right now.

That'd be because, according to the radical right, women ought to be born under a bus and stay there until the day we shuffle off this mortal coil. Which does a neat job of eliminate any need for throwing.

The left might not have a spotless record on women's issues. Far from it, in fact. But to insinuate that women should look to the right for support is rather like suggesting people move into a cardboard box underneath a bridge if their house is a bit cramped and has no garden!

I probably agree with many fascists re biological reality, no doubt also that grass is green, water is wet & beating someone to a pulp is dangerous for their health.

Spot on! Just as you can still be friends with someone who's on the opposite side of the Great Marmite Divide.

The left might not have a spotless record on women's issues. Far from it, in fact. But to insinuate that women should look to the right for support is rather like suggesting people move into a cardboard box underneath a bridge if their house is a bit cramped and has no garden!

I’m not trying to insinuate anything. People can vote how they like, it doesn’t bother me, my only concern is my own vote.

The left at the moment can’t even seem to define what a woman actually is, they might want to sort that out before attempting to lift up that heavy bus to rescue the women(?) under it.

We need the left and centre to provide a lead in this, not fascist tyrants.

why not right?
left and center(some of) is leading gender ideology and right is
against it.
but right is bad and have to wait until left suddenly wake up?

Julie Bindel has written something to provide wider focus: unherd.com/thepost/the-orban-decree-is-scary-but-its-about-more-than-trans-rights/

It really is about more than the trans issue:

The Bill is proposing an indefinite state of emergency under which the government will suspend whichever laws it chooses and impose up to five years of imprisonment for those media refusing to be part of the government propaganda machine. It is preparing to wriggle out of the European Convention on Human Rights obligations, which will put all vulnerable citizens at risk of abuse and discrimination.

Right now, Hungary is an EU country that is becoming a totalitarian regime. I am hoping that all progressives unite against Orban and his quest for totalitarianism — and look at the wider picture. This obsessive, disproportionate focus on the rights of transgender people to self-identify gets much more traction in the press than does the global pandemic of violence against lesbians.

It is time that the transgender rights lobby recognises that there are many other groups at risk under totalitarian regimes, and that those to blame are the fascists, not the feminists.

This is one for all or most of us. If bloody Pink News trying to make it all about one constituency causes mainstream opinion to believe it doesn't affect so many more interests, and to turn away, then Pink News is actually helping Orban. PN think they're the canary in the coalmine, but are the boy who cried wolf. Let's remember that others suffered from the irresponsibility of that watcher! (Perhaps the moral of the story is: don't send a boy to do a canary's job!!)

@MedusasButterDish, thank you! This is such a great article and it does a really good job of outlining the feedback mechanism between radical TRAs on the one hand and scary fucking fascists on the other!

Quite! And I really hate to be reduced to the simplistic invocation of Godwin's Law... but I am afraid there is currently a danger of appeasing fascists to keep Stalinists in check.... There has to be a third way.