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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mermaids is encouraging children to hide online searches from their parents

132 replies

jadefinch · 26/03/2020 06:08

Surely this is a child safeguarding breach and is an example of child grooming?

The trans children charity Mermaids has created a button on its desktop website so that children can immediately jump to another web site if a parent comes into the room, presumably while either looking at Mermaids material or talking to someone at the charity, so they can lie to their parents that they were actually doing something else.

They've created this because more children are home at the moment during the coronavirus pandemic.

The charity has received further criticism in the last few days for not playing what could be an important role during COVID-19:

  • They should be telling transboys to ditch their binders until this is over - the binders constrict the chest and lead to breathing difficulties, something that's potentially fatal during a pandemic where the virus targets the lungs; but Mermaids have refused to do this.
  • They should be telling all young trans people to stay away from hospitals unless there's an emergency as non-essential treatment increases the risk of spreading the virus at the moment; Mermaids has not done this.
  • They have instead asked people to buy more food on Amazon and set Mermaids up as the charity to donate a percentage of the money spent to - ignoring all charities concerned with NHS staff or the elderly that desperate need cash injections at the moment.
Mermaids is encouraging children to hide online searches from their parents
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truthisarevolutionaryact · 26/03/2020 12:04

While I understand your point statsgeek1 , it's a major problem that so many adults just assume that they can overlay their own experiences / understanding of childhood on every other child. Groups like Stonewall and Mermaids have been able to self identify as "experts" when they are evidently not. They have a niche interest with limited experience of child and adolescent development but have been allowed to influence the treatment of children everywhere.

This has resulted in the Tavistock moulding their treatment of children to satisfy the demands of adult lobbyists. The mental health professions being bullied into refusing children with complex mental health issues the space to explore their co morbidities because it's now seen as 'conversion therapy'. Professions with decades of experience in working with children with complex issues being coerced into treating any child deciding they're 'trans' as being 'competent' to make life changing decisions, no matter their age or vulnerability. Groups framing parents as potentially hostile to children and encouraging adults to encourage children to keep secrets from parents - in clear contravention of Working Together which is specific about professionals working in partnership with parents and only the courts being able to remove parental rights.

What has happened is unforgivable and it's enraging to hear adults claiming that because this is how they felt it must be applied to every other child. It's not just enraging but it's dangerous and the casualties are vulnerable children.

R0wantrees · 26/03/2020 12:08

Groups framing parents as potentially hostile to children and encouraging adults to encourage children to keep secrets from parents - in clear contravention of Working Together which is specific about professionals working in partnership with parents and only the courts being able to remove parental rights.

What has happened is unforgivable and it's enraging to hear adults claiming that because this is how they felt it must be applied to every other child. It's not just enraging but it's dangerous and the casualties are vulnerable children.

This ^^

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/779401/Working_Together_to_Safeguard-Children.pdf

statsgeek1 · 26/03/2020 12:13

'While I understand your point statsgeek1 , it's a major problem that so many adults just assume that they can overlay their own experiences / understanding of childhood on every other child. Groups like Stonewall and Mermaids have been able to self identify as "experts" when they are evidently not. They have a niche interest with limited experience of child and adolescent development but have been allowed to influence the treatment of children everywhere.

This has resulted in the Tavistock moulding their treatment of children to satisfy the demands of adult lobbyists'

My understanding can only relate to the children who are in a similar position to that which I found myself in. Even then my understanding is only my own. My personal opinion is that Mermaids provide a valuable service to that particular subset of children and their families. Any adult thinking their particular experience whether it be as trans supportive or gender critical should be pushed or forced on any child as best practice is mistaken and possibly worse.

Personally, I think that self declared experts from both sides of this debate often get far too easy a ride when expressing their opinions often without question in the MSM.

R0wantrees · 26/03/2020 12:23

Personally, I think that self declared experts from both sides of this debate often get far too easy a ride when expressing their opinions often without question in the MSM.

Child Safeguarding principles & frameworks should apply to all children.

Professionals' panel at Manchester 'Dentransition' event:
(extract)
"[Dr Hannah] Ryan introduced the panel by referencing “the fraught field that exists in regards to evidence and the use of evidence,” in terms of how youth are diagnosed with gender dysphoria and subsequently treated. She stressed that “gold standards” of research practices were not being implemented on existing and past transgender patients. Bell added that even far lower and basic standards are not being met, such as follow-up procedures to check in with transitioned individuals over time.

Hutchinson revealed that GIDS and gender clinicians across the UK rely on data that is no longer relevant to the type of patients they see now. In the past, 75 per cent of dysphoric patients were male, however, these numbers have since reversed and tipped the scales to 80 per cent female. Referrals have additionally rocketed by 4,500 per cent to 5,000 per cent in the last decade, and now encompass younger children than before. The NHS is also contending with an influx of patients with new identities, such as “non-binary.”

As if that’s not enough, children are arriving into the care of gender clinics having already socially transitioned with the help of schools and parents, a process that usually involves adopting new pronouns and superficial gender stereotypes generally attached to the opposite sex (e.g. clothing, hairstyles, etc.). Yet there are conflicting views around whether this approach is a positive method of support or if it is ethical to allow vulnerable patients to socially transition without professional advice. Hutchinson referenced a paper by Dr. Ken Zucker that found social transition can decrease the likelihood that an individual will “desist” (go back to living as their actual biological sex) further down the line.

The medical establishment appears blind to the long-term impacts puberty blockers may have on children, which Bell says are often prescribed without warning parents or caregivers about the lack of research and experimental way in which these drugs are being used. Referencing research from her Dutch sources, Hutchinson said almost 100 per cent of children on puberty blockers progress to taking cross-sex hormones, while, in the past, before puberty blockers were introduced to kids, around 80 per cent of children would decide against pursuing transition.

“We are literally in the void of discovery here,” O’Malley said.

Bell even finds the terminology “puberty blockers” to be “targeted,” as it sugar-coats what he describes as “potent drugs” that are inevitably accompanied by additional consequential effects.

“The body isn’t like a video recorder that you can just put on pause,” he said.

Medical professionals feel stifled in their ability to to talk about these issues. O’Malley’s documentary, which aired in November 2018, was pivotal in exposing this reality, as therapists and a handful of other medical professionals voiced their concerns anonymously to escape being labelled “transphobic.”

Ryan expressed empathy towards her fellow researchers. She said they are battling “immense pressure” to alleviate the suffering of patients struggling with dysphoria and affirm patients’ gender identity without question or intervention. Hutchinson, who worked in GIDS for five years, noted that clinicians can be accused of transphobia for merely “talking about evidence.”

“But how can it be transphobic to ask for better standards of care for this client group? I want better standards of care for kids with gender dysphoria,” she said, to loud applause.

Another former GIDS employee in the audience claimed that medical experts face both external and internal pressures. Most feel prohibited from talking about the possibility of desistence and detransition entirely. Bell agreed: manoeuvrability to investigate and conduct research on desistence seems almost impossible when the trans movement “has penetrated into clinical services,” and cannot be questioned, challenged, or exposed. Bell said the extent to which gender ideology has “the ears of politicians right up the highest level” as well as control over much of the media was remarkable. “It has sort of gone through unquestioned,” he said. O’Malley considered that this has only served the best interests of “non-experts” with a lot of social media followers, essentially allowing them to “lead the room” and act with impunity." (continues)
www.feministcurrent.com/2020/01/09/detransitioners-are-living-proof-the-practices-surrounding-trans-kids-need-be-questioned/

truthisarevolutionaryact · 26/03/2020 12:25

statsgeek1
The reason that actual experts in child development / psychology / education (like a number of us on here) have had to remain anonymous is because lobby groups have used tactics of threats and intimidation to silence anything other than uncritical agreement with their demands. Which is why the harmful 'treatment' of children has expanded without the ethical controls that all other branches of medicine are subject to.

It's only because so many of us have started to push back with numerous courageous individuals being open and risking their careers that finally the evident abuses are being exposed. See Professor Michael Biggs' exposure of the Tavistock's experiments with puberty blockers:
www.transgendertrend.com/tavistock-experiment-puberty-blockers-update/

CodenameVillanelle · 26/03/2020 12:29

I know two trans identifying teenagers ( now young adults ) and I’m sure they also told their college pride society that they had been abused at home. That’s categorically not true, but it’s part of the rhetoric*

My friend's daughter identifies as trans. She said the teens in the online support groups egg each other on to tell the most distressing stories about unsupportive parents. Her daughter was looked down on because her parents were too supportive. Thankfully it pushed the girl away from the groups not away from her parents but the narrative that parents of 'trans' kids are all awful, unsupportive and abusive is not true and is actively promoted by these vulture like charities.

Datun · 26/03/2020 12:36

I'd likely have gone where i thought people were going to listen to me and take me seriously.

Take what seriously? That being trans is just an identity, like being gay? That you are born in the wrong body? And that unless people validate that unquestioningly, they are abusive?

Or that gender dysphoria is a symptom of something else.

Nickname34 · 26/03/2020 12:38

Fueling childrens sense of victimhood by the people in their lives is a classic grooming method. It uses their immaturity and neivety to seperate them from the people who are most likely to protect them.

Datun · 26/03/2020 12:38

Before you say anything stats, I don't think that being gay is an identity, either.

Also, while I'm on, could you bold the paragraphs you are copying from peoples posts? You just put an asterisk either side of the paragraph with no spaces.

It makes it much clearer.

LadyQuarantinaPluckington · 26/03/2020 12:42

Yes, Codename, this is one of the most distressing parts of organisations like Mermaids - they are deliberately manufacturing a sense of being 'abused' in children and young people, and setting up a medicated and surgically altered life as the non-abusive 'freedom' option.

Any adult wishing to overlay their own experiences onto an organization behaving in such a way needs to step back and address their complicity in this kind of abuse, for the sake of their own 'validation'.

And don't worry, statsgeek, any and all legal means of bringing Mermaids to book as a dangerous organization are being pursued. But let no reader be deceived - this is an influential organization with connections and funding that will not be eager to relinquish their position. Just remember their definition of 'helping children' means something very different to what most understand by that.

statsgeek1 · 26/03/2020 12:48

Datun

Seriously in that i had a medical condition as described in the ICD which in my case needed medical and surgical intervention to improve it. No validation, just symptoms, a diagnosis and in my case a successful treatment. Of course, I'm sure they'd happy to hear your peer reviewed and tested alternatives for people in the same position.

R0wantrees · 26/03/2020 12:57

July 2019 James Kirkup for The Spectator

'It’s time to listen to the NHS gender clinic whistleblowers'
www.spectator.co.uk/article/it-s-time-to-listen-to-the-nhs-gender-clinic-whistleblowers

BMJ Published 29 October 2018
'Redesigning gender identity services: an opportunity to generate evidence'
authors: Richard Byng, general practitioner and professor in primary care research, Susan Bewley, emeritus professor of obstetrics and women’s health, Damian Clifford, consultant liaison psychiatrist, Margaret McCartney, general practitioner and freelance writer
(extracts)
"A recent feature in The BMJ implied that new services are all that’s needed to improve transgender healthcare. Providing timely, sensitive services for all, including those who decide to not pursue treatment or detransition, is important. But the article did not question the steep rise in referrals of mainly young women or the potential harms of medical overdiagnosis and overtreatment" (continues)

"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles" (continues)

www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k4490

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410257-BMJ-article-We-need-research-to-explore-the-interplays-between-gender-identity-mental-health-and-neurodevelopmental-problems-sexual-orientation-autogynephilia-and-unpalatable-gender-roles

Datun · 26/03/2020 12:57

statsgeek1

Neither your personal experience, nor mine is relevant. I'd like to see the studies that show validating young children and teenagers produces long term positive results.

Surely must know how many youngsters are saying they are trans on the basis of being gender nonconforming, or gay, being autistic and not fitting in or suffering from some kind of trauma, often sexual.

What is the reason you believe there are so many young children who are saying they are Trans? 76 in one Brighton school, for instance.

I0NA · 26/03/2020 12:58

@StatsGeek1

Mermaids is targeting children, many of who have other issues such as autism or mental health issues, some are being bullied for being GNC or are victims of grooming.

You, by your own admission, are an adult XY person who is legally competent and able To give informed consent. This isn’t about you. Safeguarding isn’t about you. It’s about children.

Please stop trying to make this about you and your own medical issues and treatment . That’s between you and your doctors.

R0wantrees · 26/03/2020 13:03

Seriously in that i had a medical condition as described in the ICD which in my case needed medical and surgical intervention to improve it. No validation, just symptoms, a diagnosis and in my case a successful treatment.

Based on Harry Benjamin's theories & standards?

stoptransingkids.wordpress.com/2019/05/11/who-was-harry-benjamin/

BovaryX · 26/03/2020 13:07

beauty and sometimes lack of clarity of language often results in freedom of speech so, ambiguity can be positive too

statsgeek
What incoherent nonsense. Freedom of speech is under existential threat from trans lobbyists whose spurious accusations of hate speech were explicitly identified as a tactic by Harry Miller's judge. The primary function of language is to communicate. The concerted attempt to sever the relationship between words and external reality, to deconstruct meaning, isn't being done to promote 'beauty' or 'freedom of speech'. It is being done because of a sinister Orwellian belief that those who control language can bend external reality to their fantasy. This authoritarian nonsense should be robustly resisted.

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 26/03/2020 13:13

I'm sure they'd happy to hear your peer reviewed and tested alternatives for people in the same position.

We all would - I wonder why no-one is doing those studies? Or the ones with decent follow up on the affirmation model (the ones I've seen have terrible dropout rates)

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 26/03/2020 13:15

Even if we were to assume that the motivations of the people at Mermaids were good (which I do not) it's clear that they're completely clueless as to proper safeguarding procedures and basic, commonly understood guidelines about how to communicate with children. You do not encourage children to lie to their parents, because that's dangerous. You do not encourage children to conceal their online activities from their parents, because the internet is full of predators and even if they're OK this time they might not be the next time. And so on.

statsgeek1 · 26/03/2020 13:26

Datun

Our experiences are both relevant to the discussion as they are points of view no doubt informed by our own experiences. I agree that neither are likely to be significant drivers in the decisions around future treatment protocols.

The only reliable statistics on the number of trans youth or at least those who think they are comes from GIDS in the UK. In the last five years just under 9000 referrals out of circa 12.5 million under 18's or about 0.072%. But, the number of referrals to GIDS, or the number of GNC children who think they may be trans in a school in Brighton is not the same as the number as those diagnosed and treated so it is likely to be somewhat less than 0.072% of all under 18's who present during childhood. So, I imagine those numbers would be unreliable in informing a treatment protocol.

As for how many people think they are trans and why, i would not presume to know. I would guess that most in that particular Brighton school aren't but personally, i wouldn't be cruel enough based on that guess to want to leave the minute few who are floundering in the distress that i have experienced without clinical assessment.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 26/03/2020 13:30

The above is in effect a suggestion that we sacrifice all the "non genuine" children caught up in this and shrug as they're subjected to unnecessary medical treatment for the sake of the "minute few". That is not an ethically acceptable position, imo.

jadefinch · 26/03/2020 13:40

Owen Jones has accused Janice Turner of bigotry for pointing out that this is a tactic deployed by child groomers

Mermaids is encouraging children to hide online searches from their parents
OP posts:
statsgeek1 · 26/03/2020 13:41

Bovary

Trans lobbyists may well try to step on your freedom of speech but, trans lobbyists are all too often confused with trans people in general. As for Harry, I happen to agree with the judgement in that i thought the officer did not deal with it very well. I expect an officer with greater experience could have made Harry feel quite small about his tweets without the need to be formal.

I was really pleased to see his main goal of overturning the COP guidance for hate recording was declined, preventing a free speech bonanza free for all manner of minorities though. Phew, that could have been unpleasant. Perhaps the Supreme Court will see it differently?

statsgeek1 · 26/03/2020 13:48

The above is in effect a suggestion that we sacrifice all the "non genuine" children caught up in this and shrug as they're subjected to unnecessary medical treatment for the sake of the "minute few". That is not an ethically acceptable position, imo.

No, the above is a suggestion to investigate those that make the claim or present with the symptoms to a medical professional . The study which is oft referred to from 2011 suggestsof those that do, over 84% will go on to have no treatment at all.

Of course, if you want them to be ignored then you need to make a louder representation for that as the NHS as it stands does listen to them.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 26/03/2020 13:50

Regrettably children and their safety and welfare are mere collateral to those in pursuit of an ideology. It's a consistent theme in relation to all sorts of cults and narcissistic individuals.
The fact that sunlight is being shed on this is most unwelcome to these people.

R0wantrees · 26/03/2020 13:50

Owen Jones has accused Janice Turner of bigotry for pointing out that this is a tactic deployed by child groomers

Owen Jones accused people who recognised the Safeguarding issues with Munroe Bergdorf being an NSPCC ambassador (suggestions children contact directly via social media) as being transphobic. They weren't transphobic, they were correct about the Safeguarding issue.
www.spectator.co.uk/article/munroe-bergdorf-the-nspcc-and-the-failure-of-the-media

Owen Jones accused people who recognised the Safeguarding issues when an NSPCC employee (James Makings) was posting his sexual fetish from work as being homophobic. They weren't homophobic, they were correct about the Safeguarding issues.

uncommongroundmedia.com/nspcc-employee-films-himself-masturbating-at-work/