Please can we talk about using the name Karen as an insult?

[NiceKaren]

I'm seeing the name Karen being used as an insult all over social media. It started as a meme, but in the last few days I've seen 'Karen' being blamed for panic buying, refusing to self-isolate and general selfishness. My name is Karen and in these tricky times it feels really unpleasant to see my name being used this way. It feels sexist, ageist and most likely classist too. Now I'm seeing it on MN as well and it makes me so sad. I can't help my name and while I used to laugh it off, I'm feeling quite upset by it tonight. Why do people do this?

I suppose I'm just posting for solidarity and wondering whether there is any point in trying to call this sort of thing out? Before, I felt it was just me being precious or unable to take a joke but now it feels quite personal and ugly.

My mums Karen I always send them to her 🤦🏼‍♀️

@AlexaCrowe

If you want to try balance things out by making fun of the annoying habits common to many men, have at it.

I’d say that’s well covered on almost every tv sitcom made since 1970 though.

They don’t though. They make fun of men for being ‘useless’ and oh it’s so funny and he’s so silly and then a woman comes and clears up the mess he’s made. ‘Oh he’s such a womaniser harhar’ etc. Not to mention most of their behaviour is blamed on the mothers, wives and other women. These memes are damaging to women. They affect the way women are viewed and treated, they’re being blamed for corona virus, panic buying, global warming, people losing their jobs, racism etc.

If you think that’s ok then you’re entitled to but others are also entitled to think it’s a damaging ‘joke’.

I'm thinking of some sitcoms from when I was growing up. Two infamous ones were Love Thy Neighbour, which was awful, and Till Death Us Do Part, which was not. Both featured older male central characters that didn't have a single redeeming feature. They were openly racist, xenophobic bigots. Eddie Booth was instantly forgettable, but Alf Garnett became synonymous with racism in the 1970s and beyond. Nobody called Alf took offence.

He was the personification of a set of attitudes that hung over from the 1960s and Enoch Powell. He was also a proud West Ham fan, and supposedly a typical representative of the East London football fan. Warren Mitchell would even pop up in character on the odd occasion that West Ham made it to a Cup Final. Imagine that now - a character famous for denigrating black people, Pakistanis and Indians on prime sports programmes. People were able to make the distinction between the grotesque caricature and normal West Ham/football fans back then. Why not now? We didn't have memes back then, but if we had, he would have been one.

I think one difference was that Alf Garnet, although fictional, was a very specific, distinctive and recognisable individual. whereas 'Karen's' behaviour and even appearance seem to change In order to represent whatever prejudices people have against middle aged 'uppity women'. So any woman over 45 can be her.

Thank you for the mini lecture about Alf Garnett although I expect the majority of posters on here found it wholly unnecessary.

It is also wholly irrelevant to the subject being discussed. Alf Garnett was as Floisme says a very specific, distinctive and recognisable individual.

Alf never became "an Alf"

IMO- Some younger women are keen to put down older women to ‘differentiate’ to try and show men why they should be treated better. eg ‘I’m young so I’m better please be nice to me’ or to convince themselves they’ll be treated better - she’s old and I’m not so I won’t be treated like that.

Similar to how some women ‘blame’ female rape victims eg she was wearing a short skirt/drunk/out alone so she deserved it. Because they can convince themselves it won’t happen to them because they don’t wear short skirts/drink/go out alone.

A lot of it is subconscious and lots of women never think that way or stop thinking that way, it’s just self preservation and when something happens that renders it pointless it falls away.

It goes much deeper than I’ve explained it but basically some women have had such awful experiences/treatment because of men they will do anything they can - consciously or subconsciously - to try and stop it happening again/happening in a worse way.

What do people think is the reason why younger women seem so keen to put down older women?
It's because middle aged and older women are pretty much despised across the whole of society. Even though they basically keep the world turning!
Women are valued for their sexual attctiveness more than anything else. When that goes we are less valuable, and younger women are just following everyone else in pouring scorn tbh.
Older men are seen as important, experienced and worthy of respect.
I wouldn't have believed this at 25. By 40 it started to become clear.

bruh it's just a meme…

It is just a meme. It’s a small thing. And it’s thousands of small things that make up one big thing - misogyny.

It’s just a slap on the arse from your boss
It’s just being made to wear high heels at work
It’s just being expected to write your husbands families Christmas cards
It’s just a whistle when you’re walking down the road
Its just girls clothes saying pretty princess and boys clothes saying hero

It isn’t all big things, it’s small things that lead to boys growing up believing they’re better than girls and girls growing up to believe boys are better. And Karen memes bleed into society that Middle aged women are responsible for a lot of bad things, are negative, naggy, rude, entitled and whatever else people decide to use it for.

Do older women really think that younger women are putting them down? That's sad to hear and certainly not the case with myself or others I know. Many boomer-related jokes are usually in response to a millennial-related comment, and those memes and posts are typically shared in a humorous way, like tagging your mum in it or something.

I realise it must be annoying for the Karens. I use the name Karen for things because I genuinely know one who is irritating as all hell and is usually the subject of the post. The male equivalent is Dave. Everyone knows an annoying Dave just like everyone knows an annoying Karen. (If you go even older it's Doris - "come on Doris it's a 50, put ya foot down!"

Many boomer jokes are not the result of millennial bashing they are used for everything towards everyone as a wide example myself and many others were debating if animal food should be classed as essential food item during a pandemic one person said they should be turned out to fend for themselves or put down because "they spread the virus" when people disagreed they were called boomer gammon and karen 🤦‍♀️

Most of the "amusing memes" are dumb repetitive boring low humour they are this generations chalky white

@slipperywhensparticus of course animal food is essential! Put them down?! In that scenario it's not even funny. Clearly that person is just a twat and certainly not using it in the humorous way it's intended. It shouldn't be used as an insult. Shocked by those comments though...

It was joke Karen!! 😂

Do older women really think that younger women are putting them down?

In real life ? No not at all.

On MN however casual, ignorant ageism happens regularly. There are posters who think they are so right on and call out racism, sexism, whateverism but ageism is just fine. It happens on FWR too.

And Karen memes bleed into society that Middle aged women are responsible for a lot of bad things, are negative, naggy, rude, entitled and whatever else people decide to use it for.

And yet it is to save the lives of middle aged and older women that the entire world economy has been put on hold for the foreseeable future. The risk to the younger generations is far lower, and yet everything has ground to a halt to prevent these people catching the virus. Is that the reaction of a society that hates you and blames you for everything? I'd take life saving actions as a trade off for a bit of a piss take any day of the week.

Middle aged and older women are out there in force: working in hospitals, care homes, serving you in shops, cleaning, doing the shopping - being called names for doing too much shopping. Many of them are caring not only for the next generation but the one above them too, and not getting a minute to themselves.
But you must know that.

Do you realise how it looks when women are trying to tell you something is happening to them and your reaction is to keep on brushing it off?
Does it remind you of anything?

..The risk to the younger generations is far lower, and yet everything has ground to a halt to prevent these people catching the virus. Is that the reaction of a society that hates you and blames you for everything..

The government has "ground everything to a halt" to protect vulnerable men and women. We are talking about some online arseholes calling women of a certain age "Karen".

Two different things entirely. Can't you see that? Really?

.. Nobody called Alf took offence...

Again, not the same thing as what we are currently talking about.

A more accurate comparison would be if when that show was broadcast men of a certain age were routinely called "Alf" by people as a put down. But that didn't happen, did it?

And yet it is to save the lives of middle aged and older women that the entire world economy has been put on hold for the foreseeable future

not true at all - and as you surely know the virus is presenting a far greater threat to men than women.

ive just seen on fb a joke that shows a picture of a news studio and says next up 'facebook expert, karen on the virus'-

quite gratifying to see lots of guys respond with things like 'barry from twitter with his conspiracy theories' and 'what about tim martinand nigel farage, arent they the true experts' etc etc.

And yet it is to save the lives of middle aged and older women that the entire world economy has been put on hold for the foreseeable future

this gave me the hugest laugh as it must have given you when you wrote it. Thank you!!!!

Do you realise how it looks when women are trying to tell you something is happening to them and your reaction is to keep on brushing it off? Does it remind you of anything?

Now this was well said.