Zoe Williams opinion piece in The Guardian

[Justhadathought]

Feminist solidarity empowers everyone. The movement must be trans-inclusive: www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/10/feminist-solidarity-empowers-everyone-the-movement-must-be-trans-inclusive

Needless to say, she misses every single point.......And no, feminism has always been about centring the needs of women and girls.......

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Upon reflection Zoe still feels that the purpose of feminism is for women to be kinder and to help other people.

Why? Come on Zoe, do a little reflection on this opinion of yours. Why would the purpose of a movement for female rights be to look after everyone else? That's a tacit admission, I think gnat she knows full well MTFs are not actually women in any meaningful way. But they want to be, so that's great, isn't it? Sisterhood.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

That not gnat!

[Justhadathought]

Solidarity is not exclusive or pedantic; it is compassionate and fights oppression where it finds it. That is its lifeblood. That is why trans women are women, or womxn


Solidarity is about being kind and compassionate, apparently - and "that is why transwomen are women". And 'woman' only gets to be spelled correctly when applied to the word transwomen, whereas actual women must make do with womxn - because it obliterates men.

I not sure I could make this stuff up if I tried, well not if i considered myself a serious journalist.

[Justhadathought]

because the word woman obliterates men

[HotSauceCommittee]

Poor, brave Suzanne Moore. Zoe William’s article is cynically timed, disingenuous and fucking treacherous. Her “sisters” certainly don’t include Suzanne.
I wanted to comment with the words, “Yes, Aunt Lydia”, but I don’t think comments are enabled.

[Datun]

TorkTorkBam

Fantastic Post. I was glued to it.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

I don't consider Zoe Williams a serious journalist, to be fair. More of a talentless hack.

[littlbrowndog]

From maya on twitter. Sums it up really

I think she's confusing feminism with the Brownie Guide promise

[Justhadathought]

The rage and contempt from people who constantly expect to benefit from ‘mothering’ work from women in general (which they have no right to ask from them). Just an amazing lack of self awareness

My feeling is that feminism has been co-opted - by many on this weird new 'left' - in order to fight various perceived oppressions, as well as the biggest threat that is climate change( and degradation of the earth and all of its other life forms) is precisely because women are instinctively and symbolically connected to Mother Earth, to nature and its rhythms; to the body.........As you say women are expected to take up this great nourishing, nurturing, protective role - even against their own best interests. To be self sacrificing.

The earth has been treated as servile; there to be plundered; to be used; controlled; manipulated; undermined, in effect abused, and yet still expected to carry on supplying and nurturing without any concern for its own needs.

[Winesalot]

Get well Floral , your pep talk is welcome.

I was thinking this exactly yesterday myself while reflecting on IWD. If we can’t get enough politicians to think beyond the superficiality of accepting transwo men as women, it feels like this state of constant fighting for the rights of women and children will simply go on indefinitely.

Then I thought, the longer it goes on, the more evidence of the conflict in safeguarding and women’s rights there will be. Optimistically, the evidence will dismantle the trope they use as arguments for debate. Sadly, it will just take time but the voices are growing.

So thank you again to those who have been dedicated to keeping these boards going for so long.

[GCGayDad]

@dances
Slightly OT, but there is a gym chain where sense still prevails: Duncan Bannatyne has said clearly and publicly that we won’t allow trans women in women’s changing rooms. He seems to totally get the safety issues.

www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/duncan-bannatyne-says-letting-trans-21550284

[Justhadathought]

Zoe Williams is a Guardian columnist.She wishes she was a punk rocker with flowers in her hair. Probably

The last line of an amusing and pertinent post - very well summed up.

In my youth I was a punk rocker, not the spitting kind, but one with 'flowers in my hair' - then I got real - because real life continues even when living on a peace camp, or in some groovy squat.

[DidoLamenting]

Zoe Williams has always been thick as mince. I've never read anything by her that made any sense.

[Thinkingabout1t]

Torktorkbam, that’s a brilliant translation of Zoe Williams’s incoherent waffling! Worth having insomnia for. It must have been like nailing jelly to a wall, but you have nailed it.

Your deadpan humour made it easier to bear:
Zoe has noticed that transmen are always ignored. Zoe does not mention them again.

I hope you get a good night’s sleep tonight. How people like ZW can sleep at all, spreading this toxic bilge, is beyond me.

[DonkeySkin]

I'm just getting this niggling feeling that these arguments are so impervious to logic that I'm not sure any more what is gained by dismantling them.

This is true. I've posted before about how support for trans ideology, especially from women, is based on deep-seated emotions and desires. The feeling of pity for a man who seems like he has been cast out from manhood. The longing to be in solidarity with men and the sense of flattery when one of them declares that he wants to join 'team woman'. The shame at being one of the lowly humans with female biology and the wish for that biology to not matter as much as it does, or at all.

All the ridiculous arguments about how DSDs disprove the sex binary and all gender is socially constructed anyway are just covers for the fact that 'trans women are women' is a catechism, a faith-based position, and like all faiths, it is based on our deepest longings.

The biggest threat that is climate change( and degradation of the earth and all of its other life forms) is precisely because women are instinctively and symbolically connected to Mother Earth, to nature and its rhythms; to the body.........As you say women are expected to take up this great nourishing, nurturing, protective role - even against their own best interests. To be self sacrificing.

This is another big, unspoken dynamic. The equation of 'woman' with 'nature' is almost entirely unconscious on the part of most people, but it informs all views on sexual politics. And the thing is, it's not entirely wrong. Women are more obviously connected with nature and the animal world because of pregnancy, birth and child-rearing. Of course, the truth is that all people are part of nature, we are all inseparable from our biology, but I think it's easier for men to forget this.

[TorkTorkBam]

Thank you. I am in the middle of a full on day of man's work in a heavily male dominated industry where I'm having to do everything over video conferencing that I was supposed to be doing in person in Europe. It is certainly keeping me awake after 2hrs sleep.

The Italians have their children wandering into dad's conf call amusingly often. It is all terribly good tempered. A Dutch man has already asked me to please keep on being "a difficult woman" so we get stuff done. A Scotsman got me a coffee and steak slice from Greggs that I am wolfing down now. I think I'm man-hating wrong. I have solved lots of problems for men though, so maybe I am womaning right. I am well paid for it so that's probably a sign I was not girly enough in negotiations. It has been about three years since somebody praised me by saying I think like a man, which I take as a sign of the men's opinions of women improving.

[RuffleCrow]

Didn't she use to be quite intelligent? I saw her once at a Green Party conference and it's been downhill ever since for her. What a numpty.

[FloralBunting]

Yes, the quasi religious aspect is something I've been banging on about for as long as I've been here. But I guess that's my point - firstly, a lot of people don't even register that they are operating a faith based argument. Reasoning helps uncover that. Secondly, once it's shown that this is all fervently well intentioned but baseless in material reality, the same cultural secular rules apply to this belief as any other - believe it freely, but don't expect it never to be challenged, and don't try and force it on others - then you've neutered a lot of it's force.

As someone who came out of a patriarchal religion that absolutely utilized every aspect of female socialization, stereotypes, and biological disadvantage, I can attest that thinking, reading, conversation and willingness to admit error was key to escaping.

[RoyalCorgi]

I dunno. On the basis that logic and facts don't work with people like Zoe Williams, I sometimes wonder if we should just point out to her who she's aligning herself with. On our side of the debate we have all the cool people like Allison Bailey, Julie Bindel, Kiri Tunks, Lucy Masoud, Professor Selina Todd, Professor Kathleen Stock, Germaine Greer, Dame Kelly Holmes, Sharron Davies - and many others.

On the other side of the debate, you have people like Jess "here are some pictures of my dick" Bradley, Shon "enjoy your erasure" Faye, Jane Fae (a campaigner for extreme, violent, anti-women pornography) plus a bunch of petulant 20-year old white boys who like dressing up in bondage gear, shouting abuse and throwing smoke bombs at a peaceful gathering of women discussing their rights.

I mean, really, Zoe? Are those the people you want on your side?

[DidoLamenting]

Didn't she use to be quite intelligent?

Not that I ever noticed. She never really had anything to say.

[Justhadathought]

Women are more obviously connected with nature and the animal world because of pregnancy, birth and child-rearing. Of course, the truth is that all people are part of nature, we are all inseparable from our biology, but I think it's easier for men to forget this

Yes! 'Manhood' has become more about conquering nature; bringing it under control to further one's own ends and needs. Becoming a 'man' has been about separation from mother and from the world of women. About separation, independence and individuality.

Problem with that is that we need to wake up to the damage we have done to the earth and its creatures - in the name of mastery. New respect for the earth needs to be discovered - and this is not a superficial task - but a fundamental and deep shift in perception and lived reality, as it relates to our bodies, our health, our healing and health systems, our lifestyles...everything.......

The trans ideology goes against nature in the most profound way....it tries to suggest that nature has got it wrong/cocked up/made a mistake - and then tries to surgically and medically alter the body to reflect the mind. It over-rides sex based differences, which are real, and tries to pretend they don't exist.

Have to say I'm not hopeful about humanity at this point......and even the young people who are supposed to be cheerleading and leading the way seem wedded to ideologies and lifestyles that remove them from feeling connected to nature and its rhythms.

[ScapaFlo]

Tork fabulous!

Floral hope you feel better soon. I almost cancelled my Mumsnet account this week, this issue is so horrendous and I can believe it's happening like it is. I'm job hunting at the moment and I don't want to go anywhere near people who think woman is just a costume. I'm in the brink of retiring from playing an active part in life outside the home.

[ScapaFlo]

*can't believe

[chilling19]

Not rtft yet but wanted to reach out to dances. I hear you because I feel the same. Accepting men in women's spaces is not possible for me. This is not a theoretical concept. I CAN'T do it. It makes me feel sick to even think about it, and any illusions of feeling safe have been stripped away by the capitulation of all the institutions that I relied upon to understand CSA and its impacts on survivors. I am really angry and despairing that my/thousands of women's experiences are being dismissed. I don't feel heard. This is made worse by not being able to speak out and defend myself in case I lose my job. So, thank you to all the brave women who are speaking out for us and I am sorry I can't stand up and be counted. Not yet. Dances💐**