Zoe Williams opinion piece in The Guardian

[Justhadathought]

Feminist solidarity empowers everyone. The movement must be trans-inclusive: www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/10/feminist-solidarity-empowers-everyone-the-movement-must-be-trans-inclusive

Needless to say, she misses every single point.......And no, feminism has always been about centring the needs of women and girls.......

[Floisme]

Well between them they've had over a week to come up with a rebuttal to Suzanne Moore's piece. If this is the best they can manage then I'm not surprised they don't want a debate.

[BeetrootRocks]

That last paragraph makes zero sense.

[BeetrootRocks]

We do understand the rationale of those who oppose us.
We think their rationale is illogical bollocks.

A male doesn't become become female by uttering some magic words Fgs.

And female is, across mammals, and most other animals, and plants as well, an actual distinct thing. From male. We have to pretend this is not true, why? That women, girls, female do not exist as a distinct category? And having lost that, our words, our grouping, then the rest is lost isn't it. There can be no feminism if there is no female.

[janeskettle]

We can’t progress without at least attempting to understand the rationale of those who oppose us

We understand it, the rationale, such as it is.

We don't agree with the rationale. It's profoundly unconvincing in terms of giving up our sex-based rights to males with or without dysphoria.

[littlbrowndog]

The last sentence. Omg

That is why trans women are women, or

Oh dear

[littlbrowndog]

Womxn

[janeskettle]

From your tone, littlbrowndog, I am guessing for the sake of my blood pressure I should not read the last line, lol

[megletthesecond]

I was pretty disappointed with it.

[GenderfreeLang]

Women-only space was a realm protected from our Harvey Weinsteins... I can’t imagine the mindset that would exclude a trans sister from that.

Hadnt Weinstein gone through some kind of SRS? So how can we both exclude and not exclude him?

[janeskettle]

Ugh, can I say I hate the invocation of 'sister' for males? Transwomen may be my brothers (unlikely for most of 'em) but they will never be my sister. That role is reserved for WOMEN.

[littlbrowndog]

I gotta a bad tone. 🤣 you should have seen my face when I read it

Does she live in real world or just a bubble of I don’t know. Madness

Who is th3 piece she wrote aimed at ?

Has she got friends in the Labour Party that need impressing or or. God I don’t know.

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

We are witnessing an explosion of misogyny at the highest levels of public life.

Yes, Zoe, and the idea that it's unkind for women to want privacy and safety is very much a part of that. Bluntly, anyone who doesn't understand that is thick as mince.

[Winesalot]

I think that you are right *Floisme’. If this is what has come about from Moore’s article last week, it is pretty telling.

It is calling for understanding and appreciation using ambiguity, obscure concepts and emotional pleas that those who are below middle age are not being understood and thus feared by the oldies. No evidence presented to support any argument. And denial that there could be any to support the argument to maintain single sex spaces, sports and sex based rights.

Pretty standard comeback actually.

[midwestspring]

I used to spend a fair bit of time telling dd to be kind, she can be pretty acerbic without meaning to be.
Reading guff like this recently has meant that I have stopped this.
I am thinking that telling women to be kind is being used as a way of telling as to stop thinking and talking.

[NotAssigned]

Read in this and other stuff like it I keep asking myself what makes otherwise intelligent women get it so spectacularly wrong.

And the thing I keep coming back to is that they must believe that transgenderism is innate.

And as for her bit about trans men, perhaps she ought to ask herself why transwomen make headlines for being the first woman in combat while transmen make headlines for giving birth. If she does, she might see that patriarchy is still in operation even if the participants have swapped clothes.

[SomeDyke]

I didn;t need to read anything other than the header:

"Taking the side of the oppressed has long been feminism’s raison d’etre."

No dear, the reason for feminism is the oppression of females. Not general oppressed-ness, or a club for all and sundry who may feel oppressed for whatever reason. It's about females oppressed by males. About the different position of the sexes, both now and historically. Females as a class............

Not anyone who at the moment is having a hard time. If that were the case, then right enough transwomen would be invited, if they could provide enough evidence of how they were hard done by. But that isn't what feminism is. Just as fighting for the rights of those oppressed because of their sexual orientation (what Stonewall used to be about), isn't the same as fighting for the rights of anyone oppressed 'cos of anything vaguely gender-related, which seems to be their current aim by which I mean, if you are thick as mince and think lesbians are oppressed just cos they perhaps look butch, then anyone else oppresssed because of their non-conforming gender presentation should get in as well.

Anyway, Zoe doesn't think we deserve a political movement of our own, a name of our own, a pot to piss in of our own, so what exactly does she think we deserve? Literally nothing, since if we don't have a name, we don't exist.............Cheers Zoe!

[CountFosco]

@HirooOnoda It is indeed a disgrace that women are being no platformed in British Universities, that women are being threatened with rape and sexual assault or being reported to the police for hate crimes if they speak up against the dismantling of our female-only spaces. But it's not the feminists who are using such heavy handed techniques to silence the opposition is it?

[FloralBunting]

Lots and lots of energy expended here and elsewhere, examining the claims of those who oppose women's rights to single sex provision and autonomy and all that far out stuff we have and demand to retain.
I make a point of suffering through tons of the meandering gibberish in the hope that one day, I will find something that explains why perfectly sensible people think these arguments are reasonable, beyond fear or conditioning. Not found it yet, but I always look.

This particular article is the new tactic, wims, in case you hadn't picked that up. They've tried a renaissance of #NoDebate, and it's basically torching the female Labour leadership candidates' campaigns, among others. They're still fond of physical and other means of intimidation, and that's led to public court battles, and made them look like terrorists attacking Grenfell residents.

So what's bleeding through is that some of the cannier people have noticed how badly the tantrums play, so they are now going to be doubling down on the #BeKind and leveraging your socialization. This is tricky, because while the vast majority of the country know that dicks aren't female, a significant portion do believe women should be kind and responsible for everyone else.

So, can I recommend a counter argument that undercuts all this pleading emotion and sticks to the facts. Be stubborn about your feminism. Remember who it's for, and focus your kindness with resolute determination on all the women who you know will materially suffer if those that wish to turn feminism into a toothless old moggy get their way.

[R0wantrees]

from the article in OP y Zoe Williams,
"So, anyway, I had seen this wonderful talk by Helen Belcher, who described the three ways in which trans people are portrayed and undermined, in the media and beyond. “The first is that they’re fraudulent. They’re not really who they say they are. We’d better humour them in their delusion. The second is trans as undeserving deviant. The third is trans as comedy.” Since then, this has intensified, with other, even more hostile, elements added: trans people as predators, the trans movement as deliberately poisoning the young. The savage mischief has seeped out of it. There is not much of the “We’d better humour them” any more."

This is the second grateful thanks to Helen Belcher read on FWR this week.
November 2018 Layla Moran put on record her gratitude to friend & colleague Helen Belcher for educating working closely with her prior to the Westminster debate when she dismissed the need for sex-based Safeguards in prisons, changing rooms etc favouring soul viewing instead.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3842434-Layla-Moran-to-run-for-Lib-Dem-leader

[Chiochan]

I was at primary school with her.
Attention seeking popular girl back then, attention seeking popular girl now.
Plus ca change.

[SuperLoudPoppingAction]

Did she mean to be punny when saying 'whittled down' in relation to Trans men?

[Level75]

Good for her. Provides some relief from accidentally stumbling across all the hate on this website.

[NotBadConsidering]

The whole “painting transwomen as deviant” trope is so tiresome. I’ll ask Zoe the same question that never gets answered.

Can Zoe please explain how to tell the difference between a nice transwoman - maybe someone she would call “sister” - a predatory transwoman like Katie Dolatowski who sexually assaulted two children in toilets, and a man who might see an opportunity in self-ID to make it easier to enact their predatory behaviour, such as installing video cameras to spy on women and girls.

If Zoe could just explain how to do that, I can pass that on to my DDs, then they can make their own risk assessment. Away you go Zoe...

[FloralBunting]

And, no kidding, but I've just had the misfortune, via friend of a friend, to happen upon some of the most disgusting 'pro life' rhetoric from the US, where there are actually people calling for women who have abortions to face punishment. To see the entrails of the Democratic party over there, and the Labour party here, so consumed with coercing women to solve everyone else's problems, making themselves laughably unelectable and allowing a vacuum to exist that will suck in more and more extreme things that will damage women's rights for a generation or further is honestly one of the single most disgraceful things I have seen 'progressives' do.

[BeetrootRocks]

'Lots and lots of energy expended here and elsewhere, '

Mainly by women. That's the upsetting thing.
This doesn't really affect men at all, it's not on their radar. They might start paying attention if and when self id comes into play but tbh. Will they? Men as a group have always turned a deliberate blind eye to all the shit that happens to women. Done by men. They are merrily above and away from all of this. I mean, people say, when it's their wives daughters mums etc. But sex based inequality and sex offences have always gone on and not really a peep. Why would this be any different? Sport may be a chance but in general, bros before hos, whether explicit or implicit.

I'm not convinced.

And meanwhile women are spending time arguing. Over a tiny group of men, let's be honest. Whether they are 'ok' or not.
It's so tedious.

But. If we lose the ability to define ourselves as a group then it's game over, it really is.

So. Keep at it

Pissed me off all the stuff on IWD and when articles call for 'gender equality'. They KNOW what female is. They all know. But simultaneously, the next day, they don't.

IWD - abortion rights being eroded around the world
Next day- woman is not about biology!

I mean, come on.