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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Zoe Williams opinion piece in The Guardian

203 replies

Justhadathought · 10/03/2020 19:05

Feminist solidarity empowers everyone. The movement must be trans-inclusive: www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/10/feminist-solidarity-empowers-everyone-the-movement-must-be-trans-inclusive

Needless to say, she misses every single point.......And no, feminism has always been about centring the needs of women and girls.......

OP posts:
Thinkingabout1t · 10/03/2020 22:47

According to Zoe Williams, the purpose of feminism — its raison d'être, the reason for its existence — is to take the side of the oppressed.

So it’s not surprising she thinks we should be kind, move over, make way for that most oppressed minority, men. When the trans issue came up, says Zoe, it was obvious which side feminism would be expected to take: “the side of compassion and fellowship.”

Strangely, feminists thought feminism was about taking the side of women. A simple mistake.

Jesus wept.

Doobigetta · 10/03/2020 22:52

Zoe Williams has always waffled utter garbage, did nobody notice this before? I find her virtually unreadable.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/03/2020 22:53

But the point is is that there hasn't been a proper public debate It's been cancelled. And so it has become a war of attrition conducted via social media.

This is the absolute heart of the matter. And here's pious, sanctimonious Zoe irresponsibly adding to it.

Dances · 10/03/2020 22:54

Thanks Floral x

FloralBunting · 10/03/2020 22:54

A feminism that includes Belcher and excludes, say, Dances here, Is. Not. Feminism.

We could call it Sandwich feminism, perhaps, as the female adherents to the philosophy will probably get familiar with making them and being ordered to make them for the extra special women.

lanadelgrey · 10/03/2020 23:04

As I always say, sharing your views with a publication is always worthwhile. Wink

nonsenceagain · 10/03/2020 23:10

Dances Flowers I hear you. I'm so sorry.

Clymene · 10/03/2020 23:13

She wrote quite a good piece about how a CV-related school closure exposes the frailty of the childcare jigsaw that most working women rely on. She talked about single mothers and the fact that women are discriminated against overtly and covertly in the workplace for picking up the bulk of child caring.

I guess that was just about that subset of women who are mothers, instead of the subset of women who are trans. I wonder if those men who come out after having children suffer that kind of discrimination? Somehow,I doubt it.

Tell me again what transwomen have in common with women Zoe?

I'll wait.

frazzled1 · 10/03/2020 23:20

I can’t imagine the mindset that would exclude a trans sister.....

...Solidarity is not exclusive or pedantic; it is compassionate and fights oppression where it finds it. That is its lifeblood. That is why trans women are women, or womxn.

It's not the job of FEMinism to be inclusive. Feminism centres the female experience and - pesky biological reality - humans cannot change sex. (Does the Red Cross campaign for diabetes research? etc etc). I'd support any campaign lobbying for additional facilities for trans people such as unisex toilets alongside single sex provision. Not instead of. Nope. No way.

Floisme · 10/03/2020 23:32

This is tricky, because while the vast majority of the country know that dicks aren't female, a significant portion do believe women should be kind and responsible for everyone else.
Yes this is the problem I think. The article may be a bit of fluff that disintegrates as soon as logic is applied but that won't matter, because a lot of people aren't interested in thinking it through.

The basic premise that feminism is some kind of generic task force to fight oppression and meanness (and climate change) is deeply ingrained. I don't know what the answer is but I don't think it can be fought with rational argument alone.

Noooblerooble · 10/03/2020 23:44

Dances Flowers Also standing with you.

I care

FloralBunting · 10/03/2020 23:57

Rational argument and persuasion is all we really have. Gritty determination will have to pull us a bit further. We've had some luck, too, often because TRAs are not all Ernst Blofeld, hatching diabolically clever schemes, they're actually often really dim and keep tripping over their own baseball bats.

Look, as some of my good friends here will attest, I have been close to throwing in the towel any number of times, and the fact that there is no silver bullet can be disheartening.

But though the solidarity Williams talks about in her article is bullshit - there is a solidarity between women that keeps us going and actually makes inroads. It was rational argument that first opened my eyes to what feminism meant - but it was experiencing genuine female only environments that made me joyfully and wholeheartedly say that I am a feminist.

Making our arguments, and modelling how transformative female spaces can be will be a bloody good starting point.

ChattyLion · 11/03/2020 01:47

DancesFlowers

The basic premise that feminism is some kind of generic task force to fight oppression and meanness (and climate change) is deeply ingrained.

Yes. I’ve been really noticing this anti-feminist argument online and IRL lately. The rage and contempt from people who constantly expect to benefit from ‘mothering’ work from women in general (which they have no right to ask from them). Just an amazing lack of self awareness.

TorkTorkBam · 11/03/2020 03:24

I am having a menopausal bout of insomnia. Zoe's article annoyed me so much felt I had to summarise it paragraph by paragraph since I can't sleep!

TLDR; the purpose of feminism is women helping other people, like duh, obvious. Women could get a lot done if they stopped squabbling. Therefore feminists must stop arguing against attempts to change the definition of woman. Be kinder to men and keep your irritating opinions to yourselves ladies.

Headline:
Feminist solidarity is a good thing so stop arguing when you are told that "woman" has a new definition which includes men.

Sub-heading
Feminism is about women helping other people. Women should tackle misogyny by being kinder and doing as they are told.

Main article:
Seven years ago Zoe felt it obvious that the purpose of the feminist movement was to work out who in the world is most oppressed and then all the women go help them. Zoe noticed that some feminists disagreed with her and were quite insistent that feminism is about women, specifically women as defined by biology. She assumed they'd eventually come round to her way of thinking so she ignored the silly moos.

A trans activist explained to Zoe how the media keep undermining trans ideology. Mainly by implying that only fraudsters would claim humans can actually change sex. In the past people were good-humoured about trans people. Not any more. This change is associated with press coverage of predators identifying as trans and the idea of "the trans movement as deliberately poisoning the young"

Bigots can't laugh at disabled people or burn gays and witches any more but because they are bigots they need someone to hate on so "the very idea of a trans person became its great release. All this pent up feeling exploded on to this one group".

Now that feminists have finished the battle against sexism it seems obvious to Zoe that they should help trans people fight such blatent bigotry.

Seven years ago, Zoe thought this logic reasonable: "having gone nowhere near definitions, biology or absolutes". She was looking forward to a big friendly civil rights movement with marches, friendships and love.

Unfortunately for Zoe's wannabe Greenham Common dreams "That is not how it played out. Women on the other side of this row were apoplectic" Zoe says the women were apoplectic because they believed trans allies were "calling them uncompassionate" which is the worst thing a feminist can be. Zoe thought: "I am never going anywhere near this again, which was cowardly; I regret it."

Now Zoe is back in the mix. You see there is growing consensus that transactivists are hounding out “real” feminists from the debate. Zoe says this is incorrect. What is really happening is that the feminists won't shut up about sex-segregated spaces and they repeatedly dismiss other arguments as irrelevant.

"The core issues have been whittled down to such a sharp, conflicted point – do cis biological women need protected status?"

Zoe notes that the existence of transmen makes that question extra difficult. Zoe has noticed that transmen are always ignored. Zoe does not mention them again.

Being a trans ally feminist is totally the mainstream but is also sidelined.

Some people want "to maintain the fiction that this is a generational battle between old and young feminists." Zoe knows that the young are not all naive idiots and "Just because you are middle aged does not mean you agree with Germaine Greer." Mind you, Zoe notes those stereotypes are handy because it is convenient to grab any excuse for avoiding the debate, "because the conflict runs so high."

She has now decided running away is "not a sufficient response" because too much is at stake. Women might not be generous!

Zoe feels "It is astonishing that the idea of the “women-only space” is being touted as a fundamental pillar of the movement" Zoe reminds us that women have needed those spaces throughout history because of male predators.

Well actually she notes that women needed women-only spaces to "talk" about the predators. She points out that talking about predators is done with vocal chords not ovaries and so she "can’t imagine the mindset that would exclude a" male who says he is a woman who then demands to come in. She calls him a trans-sister.

Zoe is frustrated that feminists keep banging on about vulnerability and strength. She feels it is a sign of bigotry to focus on such "operational reasons" for not accepting trans people as actually being their opposite sex. It is a bit like apartheid.

Zoe has noticed that "much of the live combat happens on Twitter. This is not to call it irrelevant (I love Twitter), but might be cause to reflect." Zoe reflects that women should stop arguing because "There is so much else we could be doing." She suggests "climate strikes and the women’s marches" which could be the big friendly group movements she pines for.

Zoe has noticed misogyny is on the rise "We are witnessing an explosion of misogyny at the highest levels of public life. We have seen explicitly misogynistic terrorist acts – indeed, hatred of women is the through line that connects Isis to incels, that unites acts of violence globally – all while state-sponsored oppression of women has ascended to new levels of impunity. We have never needed unity more, yet, by wild coincidence, at exactly this moment, suddenly there is this obstacle that we can’t get past."

This obstacle to unity is women's refusal to agree that some men are women if they say so.

Zoe finds it a wild coincidence that in a time of heightened misogyny women are being told that being a women is mainly about being stereotypically feminine and this should be enshrined in law.

Zoe notes that one side has to win: "one side can’t prevail until the other is destroyed" There is no precedent for such a social situation! Nope she knows of no win-lose situation in any rights issue ever in all of history. This is modern. Unprecedented.

No, hang on a minute Zoe has thought of a precedent! Think of those big ideas that have divided society, the ones you hear people split on all the time, no not Brexit, she means "Are all men rapists?" and "Is all sex servitude?" and "Is lesbianism a political act?" Zoe notes we have been able to settle these questions without science. Partly because we got bored.

Zoe thinks that when people agree with each other then life gets better. Although the debates are more boring, which is a problem but she can get past it. Solidarity is good!

Zoe thinks that a feminist group best develops solidarity by letting anyone join and by avoiding being pedantic about what a woman is.

Upon reflection Zoe still feels that the purpose of feminism is for women to be kinder and to help other people. Zoe feels that this "is its lifeblood."

Zoe writes that this all explains why transwomen are actually women not males. We can call them womxn if we want.

Zoe Williams is a Guardian columnist

She wishes she was a punk rocker with flowers in her hair. Probably.

TorkTorkBam · 11/03/2020 03:27

Next week Zoe will explain how brown people must lead the fight against the housing crisis (now racism has been solved by media bans on some racist words and there being black people in adverts sometimes).

Brown people will be required to share their house with any blue-eyed blonde person who doesn't like their own house. A lonely white person came up with the idea. Fighting racism is about brown people doing what blondes want without complaining.

Zoe hopes there will be banners, jumpers, chanting and face paint.

MorrisZapp · 11/03/2020 03:40

Tork, you've just done the writing of your life x

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 11/03/2020 06:59

And the irony that tork's deconstruction came about due to the menopause....

GenderfreeLang · 11/03/2020 07:18

tork that is excellent.

Floisme · 11/03/2020 07:24

Tork I wish I could put insomnia to such creative use.
Zoe has noticed that transmen are always ignored. Zoe does not mention them again made me laugh out loud.

I have to admit, reliance on rational argument and persuasion concerns me. I don't know what else we've got either but if that were all that were needed, we could have packed up and gone home long ago. (And I've said that already this week and it's only Wednesday.)

DickKerrLadies · 11/03/2020 07:48

Zoe has noticed that transmen are always ignored. Zoe does not mention them again.

GrinGrin

It's funny, I was always told that feminists hate men, but now apparently feminism is all about putting men first - amazing, that! Next time a bloke asks me if I'm one of those 'angry feminists who hate men' I can say that Noooo, feminism isn't like that anymore - it's all long live the penis now!

FloralBunting · 11/03/2020 07:50

Tork, yam gonna get some plaudits for that. Fabulous.

Flo, well to be fair, I didn't say it was all that was needed, but there's nothing in the idea of rational argument and persuasion that indicates a quick fix, is there? In fact, persuasion to me has an implication of something ongoing.

Floisme · 11/03/2020 08:06

No there isn't Floral and I'm probably just on a downer at the moment. I'm just getting this niggling feeling that these arguments are so impervious to logic that I'm not sure any more what is gained by dismantling them. If that makes sense.

FloralBunting · 11/03/2020 08:22

Flo, totally get you. Bizarrely, I was there yesterday morning myself until some good friends pulled me round and convinced me to keep at it.

And the reality is we will never persuade everyone, in finality, and be able to sit down and chill out in, all liberated. That's one of the really hard lessons this attempted rolling back of our rights has really taught me - the fat lady never sings.

It's never going to be over because there will always be an underlying power imbalance, based in our immutable biology, that means women are at a disadvantage in a human society.

Which means women are always going to need to fight for their rights, and once they have them, be vigilant about protecting them. And that can really get you down, because who wants to struggle forever?

That's why I talked about female solidarity, and the precious and special nature of women only spaces - because yes, when we are isolated and alone, perpetual struggle is a killer. But collectively, we can do it. We just have to accept that not all of us, all of the time, and practice good self care.

I'll stop being such a grimly upbeat pep talker now, because I'm actually extremely ill atm, confined to my bed, and it's faintly ridiculous to be writing rallying cries in this state.

Floisme · 11/03/2020 08:25

I'm sorry to hear you're ill Flowers Take care and that is very good advice.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/03/2020 08:30

Feel better Floral Thanks

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