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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Piers Morgan with Lisa Nandy on Good Morning Britain

393 replies

musicposy · 10/03/2020 07:46

He’s trying to push Lisa Nandy as to whether any man can self identify and compete in woman’s sports. He’s actually trying to talk some sense and saying it’s unfair to woman’s rights. Making really good points about trans rights overriding woman’s rights.
She will not give a straight answer to anything.

OP posts:
zanahoria · 13/03/2020 08:50

" India can shout that from the highest tower, but it still is not true, and 99.9999% of blokes would not consider India to be a woman - just saying"

I noticed that on Celebrity Big Brother that even after she had browbeaten the women into agreeing, none of them actually gave the impression they believed it. Amanda Barrie just talked to India like she was petulant child "of course you are, dear" but intereracted in a completely different way than with the women in the group.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/03/2020 08:52

Amanda Barrie just talked to India like she was petulant child "of course you are, dear" but intereracted in a completely different way than with the women in the group.

IME women very rarely use that tone towards adult females, but do use that tone towards adult males with a fair amount of regularity.

(As a result of adult males being more prone to acting like petulant children than adult females.)

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 13/03/2020 08:53

prodigal

I don’t think anyone is too harsh on this issue, people are very passionate and protective on this board

It was self id that did it for me...and when you get rid of the concept of self id as something which huge changes in society and womens rights HAVE to be made to be nice, then its not a leap to believe that even ‘true’ trans have self IDed to a point

WhatKatyDidNot · 13/03/2020 08:57

To my understanding Beryl isn't just the internalized socialization that hurts a woman herself, she's a representation of the tendency to try to force other women to abide by that socialization too. She's what Nandy is deploying every time she bangs on about the child in her constituency as a means to shut other women up.

Thank you! That makes perfect sense. Ya boo sucks to Beryl.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 13/03/2020 09:00

Yeah I don’t have a beryl if thats what it means

I have an enid who wants to be nice but over coffee is beginning to think beryle is a twat and beryl maybe very...very...very wrong

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/03/2020 09:05

I think I have an inner Andrea, or possibly an inner Julie (Bindel or Burchill, take your pick really). It took me a very long time to understand that for those who do have a Beryl shaking her off isn't necessarily as easy as realizing that she's not helping much. Socialization runs deep.

SisterWendyBuckett · 13/03/2020 09:06

I have said I think that quite a few women, who have no sympathy with the idea of self-id or "trans" people who have made no significant medical changes, think differently about people who have been vetted through significant psychoanalysis, and who have had sex reassignment surgery.

Just picking up on the vetted through significant psychoanalysis point.

I have a close family member who is a hugely experienced, practising doctor of psychoanalysis. The NHS services in the UK that enable people to receive actual psychoanalysis are next to nil.

What services there were have been mostly pulled.

Yes, you can pay to have it privately. Not quite so difficult if you live in or near London and have a lot of money. You'll need several sessions a week if you want to undertake this properly.

There are analysts in the rest of the country, but they are few and far between.

All that aside, the fact of the matter is that those wishing to transition do not receive adequate and neutral counselling, let alone psychoanalysis.

When someone is desperate to receive a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and start the pathway of medical transitioning, they don't go for psychoanalysis or any deep thinking talking therapy.

And actually, I believe that thinking deeply is the last thing they would want to do.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/03/2020 09:06

(Can you tell that Nandy is frustrating me?)

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/03/2020 09:09

I don't think "vetted through significant psychoanalysis" represents the norm for trans people in any country. It may be easier to access in North American, particularly if you have lots of money, but I'm not convinced that even back in the 70s or 80s this wasn't more propaganda than reality.

ScapaFlo · 13/03/2020 09:10

I have an inner bitch troll from hell. Who is becoming more of an outer bitch troll from hell the older I get and the more nonsense about 'gender' is spouted Grin

DuLANGDuLANGDuLANG · 13/03/2020 09:18

Voila! The ‘Beryl’ thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3412053-Mumsnet-FWR-Guide-to-De-Programming-Yourself-From-Self-Harming-Kindness

‘Pathological Altruism’ is a great phrase. The left is absolutely infested with it at the moment. Nandy, Long Bailey, Rayner, all textbook examples.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_Altruism

I wonder if my Beryl came home in the maternity hospital Bounty pack as I don’t think I had one until then?

WhatKatyDidNot · 13/03/2020 09:46

I am loving this Beryl trope! Thanks DuLANG!

I think I am not prepared to make compromises on behalf of other women just because they have a nasty Beryl whispering in her ear.

R0wantrees · 13/03/2020 10:05

from the de-programming /Beryl thread:

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'.

Not just 'unkind' but also "agressive".
The expectations affect how others treat women who are centring their sex-based rights & Safeguarding.

FloralBunting · 13/03/2020 10:17

Witness how often robust and forthright here gets painted as something else.

Now, to be fair, I can certainly be very rude and it's sometimes uncalled for, but even the most measured but blunt statement gets the sucky lemon face treatment so often if a woman makes it.

DonkeySkin · 13/03/2020 10:48

People here sometimes talk as if the most hard line GC position is the one that the vast majority of women would want to see instantiated, in terms of political solutions, and my point was I am not convinced that is true.

I can see what you are saying Goose, and I think you're right about most women's views on this, but it doesn't necessarily follow that that should be the stance that feminists take.

There was a survey a while back that showed something like 60-70 per cent of women felt comfortable with a 'transgender woman' using women's facilities. This survey is sometimes used by trans activists to show that most women support 'trans rights'. However, it's very likely that when the women polled read 'transgender woman' they assumed that meant 'transsexual' - they were not picturing a person with an unambiguously male body and almost certainly didn't realise that 'transgender woman' meant literally any man.

So while the trans activists are misrepresenting the survey, it is likely that most women do indeed feel inclined to accept men who have 'gone through all that' ('that' being assumed to be genital surgery and extensive counselling) in women's spaces. Most women feel compassion towards them and see them as fundamentally unthreatening.

That's probably where most 'GC' feminists were at at one stage too. It's the default position on trans for almost all women, I think: 'You have a psychological condition that causes you great distress, you've tried as hard as you can to make yourself look 'female', there are very few of you, who am I to stand in the way of making your life easier'?

The problem is that a lot of these assumptions are based on false, or at least incomplete, premises. You could see this with India Willoughby on CBB - how the female housemates wanted to welcome India as a 'sister', but how almost immediately their words and body language - and India's - revealed the same old male domination-female submission dynamic. Many 'true transsexuals' have the same attitude of entitlement towards women as any sexist man, so the premise that they have become 'like women' is false, and worse, women are forbidden from acknowledging these sexist dynamics, because to do so is framed as a (quite literally) mortal insult to the transsexual male. This kind of bullying framework, in which women are forced to subordinate our instincts and sense to men's desires, is unacceptable and feminists are duty bound to expose this, not collude in it, by pretending there is a fundamental difference between those who've had surgery and those who haven't.

Further, the rhetoric and political activism by transsexuals is what has laid the foundation for everything we are seeing today: 'sex change' (and the extension of this idea to children), mind over body, trans feelings over everyone else's reality, the elimination of female as a legal and social category. As this blog notes:

Transexual activists lobbied for the legal fiction of sex change, and Parliament delivered, despite knowing what re-defining ‘woman’ and ‘female’ to include males would do to women’s rights.

So just because most women currently see transsexualism as harmless, or as a distinct phenomenon to transgenderism, doesn't mean that this view is correct, much less that feminists should reinforce it. Rather, it makes more sense for us to debunk it.

Langsdestiny · 13/03/2020 10:54

It was exactly the same on I'm a celebrity, they didnt interact with caitlin in the same way they did with women, no matter how hard they pretended to.

R0wantrees · 13/03/2020 11:02

It was exactly the same on I'm a celebrity, they didnt interact with caitlin in the same way they did with women, no matter how hard they pretended to.

Presumably Jenner also interacted differently to women?

Datun · 13/03/2020 11:09

Rather, it makes more sense for us to debunk it.

Indeed. It's not women's job to make men feel better about the reasons they have transitioned. Whether it's to validate a fetish, or a delusion, or a mental condition, which is apparently what they are calling gender dysphoria these days.

Especially if it compromises them in any way, or any other woman.

A woman asking for a female to do her smear test wants exactly that. She doesn't give a toss if the male showing up is showing up because it turns him on, he has a mental condition, is requiring her to validate him, or thinks she should be ok because he has been 'vetted through significant psychoanalysis'.

In this equation, what the man wants is irrelevant.

Yet we are often subjected to the concept that what a man wants should, automatically, inform the women he wants it from.

RoyalCorgi · 13/03/2020 11:10

That pathological altruism entry from Wiki is fascinating - it's not a concept I had come across before. Neither had I heard of "animal hoarding" though now I know what it is I can think of examples. I wonder if it's a bit similar to the phenomenon of those celebrities who adopt lots of children from deprived backgrounds but are unable to care for them properly (Mia Farrow being an example).

And yes, people like Nandy are textbook examples. Doing a lot of harm while imagining they are being "kind". Zoe Williams too.

R0wantrees · 13/03/2020 11:21

Yet we are often subjected to the concept that what a man wants should, automatically, inform the women he wants it from.

Centring women & girls being the antidote to this.

WhatKatyDidNot · 13/03/2020 11:25

So just because most women currently see transsexualism as harmless, or as a distinct phenomenon to transgenderism, doesn't mean that this view is correct, much less that feminists should reinforce it. Rather, it makes more sense for us to debunk it.

Preach.

And let's also remember that most women who say they might be happy with some males in their spaces, providing those males are sans penis, would be equally happy were there to be no males at all in their spaces. They'd also be equally happy to support male-led campaigns to make all males, whatever their identity, safe and welcome in male spaces.

The number of women who actively want males in their spaces is tiny. The Woke clique might well have captured organisations and institutions but it hasn't captured the public and it never will.

Datun · 13/03/2020 11:44

The number of women who actively want males in their spaces is tiny.

Yes. When you focus on what women actually want, rather than what they are being guilted into.

DonkeySkin · 13/03/2020 11:57

A woman asking for a female to do her smear test wants exactly that. She doesn't give a toss if the male showing up is showing up because it turns him on, he has a mental condition, is requiring her to validate him, or thinks she should be ok because he has been 'vetted through significant psychoanalysis'.

In this equation, what the man wants is irrelevant.

Yes, Datun. I know this is a hardline stance, but IMO it is the only rational and coherent one for feminists to take. We can (and should) support laws to protect people from discrimination on the basis of sex-role presentation, but supporting the idea of 'true transsexualism' is a political dead end. It looks like a reasonable compromise, but in reality would suit almost no one.

There is also little point in trying to get the government or anyone else to enforce a medical standard on who gets to be 'trans'. Most doctors in this field are operating outside of all normal standards of evidence and ethics, and will 'trans' anyone and sign off on anything, as we are seeing with children. They need to be exposed too, not invested with further authority.

I don't think that a firm stance that no man can become a woman, and that women have the right to draw boundaries on the basis of sex, will be alienating to most women, as long as we put the case clearly and respectfully and without defensiveness. It might well be the first time they have ever heard or considered our arguments, but since they make sense, there's no reason for us to be ashamed to state them, and for governments and institutions to try to work around THAT demand, instead of the demands of trans activists.

The key is to get enough women behind the idea. I think Goosefoot is right that most women at this point DON'T feel particularly hardline about this - many may well be simply undecided about what is the best position to take. IMO the best way to convince other women is not to argue about what is 'true' ('Men can't be women!' 'Yes, they can be!') but to get women to think more deeply about the premises we are being expected to accept.

Are people who identify as trans truly the most vulnerable people in society? Should their demands come before the needs of other vulnerable groups, such as abused women, children and the elderly? Was it a good idea for governments to create the legal fiction of 'sex change' in the first place? Is it really hateful for women to ask for our biology to be recognised in certain circumstances (e.g., prisons, sport)? Are trans activist demands actually reasonable, or can society reasonably refuse them? Are men who identify as women really 'on the side of women', and if so, why are they obsessed with harnessing the force of the state to ensure we can't say 'no' to any male who says he's a woman? Who will benefit if their demands are fully realised, and single-sex provision, female sports and accurate crime statistics are eliminated - will women benefit? Are these the political goals of people who truly identify WITH (not 'as') women and are on our side? Is it incumbent on women to show compassion and concern towards people who demonstrate so little for us?

Yet we are often subjected to the concept that what a man wants should, automatically, inform the women he wants it from.

This is also the sort of thing I mean when I say we need to be challenging the underlying premises that inform this debate. What are the (often unconsciously held) views that are influencing people's, especially women's, stance on this?

Goosefoot · 13/03/2020 12:29

The problem with Nandy is not that she is capitulating to her inner Beryl. It's actually her job to consider all of the people she represents anyway, not just women.

The problem is that she doesn't make sense. What she is proposing is not a matter of looking at what is just and right for everyone, nor is it about what is true. And figuring out the former, which can be difficult at times, depends on a very clear vision of the latter.

endofthelinefinally · 13/03/2020 12:35

I think the trans lobby are desperate to muddy the waters around self ID and the tiny number of what some people consider to be genuine transsexuals - the ones who have had hormones and surgery. I have difficulty explaining the difference to people who are educated scientists, teachers, etc. I can't understand why it isn't obvious, but it seems to be a conflation that is being reinforced constantly.
As has been said before, this all started back in the 70s and that was the thin end of the wedge.
I think when people assume it won't affect them personally, they can't be bothered to think it through.

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