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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Piers Morgan with Lisa Nandy on Good Morning Britain

393 replies

musicposy · 10/03/2020 07:46

He’s trying to push Lisa Nandy as to whether any man can self identify and compete in woman’s sports. He’s actually trying to talk some sense and saying it’s unfair to woman’s rights. Making really good points about trans rights overriding woman’s rights.
She will not give a straight answer to anything.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 12/03/2020 22:29

All I have suggested is that I think a fair number of real women, even when they are aware of the issues, would consider that not all supposedly trans people are equivalent, and that they might e amenable to thinking about what things really should be female only, and which things need to be less strict, or not strict at all.

Well, obviously there are some things which can be mixed sex, and are already. But you seem to want to make some women's things open to some male trans people, but only the right sort of male trans people. How do you go about that? How do you separate the 'good' trans or 'true' trans from the fakers and self-id types? It can't be done. So it comes back to women-only and mixed sex.

OldCrone · 12/03/2020 22:32

I think it would effectively look like a third class, not easy to get included in, who could access some things designated for women but perhaps not others.

How does this benefit women?

FlyingOink · 12/03/2020 22:36

The positive about treating post operative men as if they were women is that there are hardly any of them.
The negatives about treating post operative men as if they are women include:
Having to adopt a position that surgery is necessary
Having to adopt a position that surgery is desirable
Having to adopt a position that the outcomes are positive
Ignoring the terrible failure rate of the actual surgery and the failure rate psychologically
Accepting men as women if they try hard enough
Ignoring socialisation
Assuming a penisless man is harmless
Accepting that the adoption of "feminine mannerisms" and removal of a penis makes a man a woman, and all the unpacking that comes with that
What about men who can't have surgery?

I've missed some out, and yeah I agree most people think we owe some respect to those people dysphoric enough to have surgery. So focussing on getting the message out that post operative men are about 5% of the total and the rest are what the public would call transvestites, is important.

FlyingOink · 12/03/2020 22:38

I forgot the obvious on my negatives list : we have no way of knowing who has had surgery so the 95% can easily lie and say they have.

Datun · 12/03/2020 22:47

If you decide that some women aren't properly womanly in their opinions, that comes to the same thing. Maybe worse really.

Again, I haven't told anyone to shut up goose.

Men's motivation for transitioning will mean bugger all to most women specifically occupying spaces 'designated for women'.

What benefit is it to women to speculate why men transition and 'grade' their access on that basis?

R0wantrees · 12/03/2020 23:13

If you decide that some women aren't properly womanly in their opinions, that comes to the same thing. Maybe worse really.

Im very confident that Datun thinks women are only adult human females.
Im also confident that she doesn't assess their opinions on the basis of 'womanly nature'

andyoldlabour · 12/03/2020 23:36

FlyingOink

We know the vast majority of MtF transgender people never have surgery, this is what it makes such a concern to women.
Many of the TRA's demand full access to women's safe places, and that to me as a man rings alarm bells, as it does to virtually all women.
This is a real and very serious situation.
As a guy, this is a case of empathy towards the opposite sex, a little thought and consideration, something which many people have abandoned.
Just because men, such as I, are not going to be afffected by all this, is doesn't mean it doesn't care to us, it does, but the vast majority of us have no voice.
We live in a virtual world, commanded by "celebs" who rule the roost on MSM, they must be challenged.
I am tired and going to bed, because I cannot get my mind around this mess.
However, tomorrow is another day.

As a very famous actress once said.

Datun · 12/03/2020 23:37

Im also confident that she doesn't assess their opinions on the basis of 'womanly nature'

Yes, I couldn't quite work that comment out, tbh.

R0wantrees · 12/03/2020 23:48

Yes, I couldn't quite work that comment out, tbh.

India Willoughby, Celebrity Big Brother2018
"I am a real woman... Im going to say that one more time so it really penetrates, I am a real woman"

andyoldlabour · 12/03/2020 23:59

R0wantrees

India can shout that from the highest tower, but it still is not true, and 99.9999% of blokes would not consider India to be a woman - just saying.

Thisismytimetoshine · 13/03/2020 00:02

That’s the real acid test, andy.

R0wantrees · 13/03/2020 00:07

andyoldlabour
Apparently Piers Morgan does.
Presumably India Willoughby would be one of the male TS who are considered by some men to have had sufficient counselling & surgery that they should be regarded as 'deserving' access to some female only spaces/services?

WeetabixBananaHipsterFFS · 13/03/2020 01:24

Superb work by PM.

If this interview is representative, why Suzanne Moore deems LN bright (see Spectator article) is a mystery.

Goosefoot · 13/03/2020 01:56

But you seem to want to make some women's things open to some male trans people, but only the right sort of male trans people.

Oh for goodness sake, I haven't said anything about what I want.

I think that many women feel differently about different groups of transwomen. I don't know how they would want to differentiate them, I suggested one way, but it is really pretty irrelevent to what I was saying.

I also said that I believe they would have a variety of views about what sorts of things might be open to whom, and again, without going out and doing some detailed polling, I can't tell you what each of them would think.

People here sometimes talk as if the most hard line GC position is the one that the vast majority of women would want to see instantiated, in terms of political solutions, and my point was I am not convinced that is true.

Asking me what that does for women or what it would look like - why even ask me that, the whole point is that it would have to be explored in some kind of public discourse.

But this sort of aggression when someone even mentions that maybe many women would have different views, and snide comments about them (or me, weirdly) not being woman centred? If a woman gives her considered view on an issue about women, and she's told sorry, you aren't a woman-centered woman - well, who is - the women that dismiss the views of other women when they don't like what they say?

FlyingOink · 13/03/2020 04:46

Asking me what that does for women or what it would look like - why even ask me that, the whole point is that it would have to be explored in some kind of public discourse.
This is public discourse. I've stated the pros and cons of treating post operative transsexuals as women above. What are your thoughts on it?

BeetrootRocks · 13/03/2020 07:57

We know women have different views, from no males in places that are women only for safety/ privacy etc to everyone should be treated according to preferred gender including prison, stats etc

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 13/03/2020 08:06

It's fairly obvious that there are an extraordinary number of people, not just men, who find it almost impossible to centre women

goose

The above isnt an insult or a way of shutting anyone up

Its a statement of fact

I agree with just about all of your recent posts (maybe all ....can’t be arsed to check again)

And I’m not taking datuns comments as an attack on my thoughts

Left to my own devices i would , without question, be ‘true trans’ focused

Ive said many times that there are some arguments on here i am uncomfortable with

HOWEVER, i am well aware that if i stuck to that view i would NOT be centering women (that doesn’t look like ive spelt it right)

Now a number of people are taking the piss on this issue i am much more likely to take one womans NO as the end of the discussion, no matter how uncomfortable I might feel

(And I understand that my comfort level is affected by my female socialisation)

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 13/03/2020 08:06

Oooh that was long

ScapaFlo · 13/03/2020 08:15

But worth reading Rufus

DuLANGDuLANGDuLANG · 13/03/2020 08:32

I’d probably say yes to ‘trutrans’ too, because my inner Beryl is very powerful.

My Nana didn’t have a Beryl (she probably stamped it out whilst in the WAAF during WW2), which is why I try and channel her when posting on FWR, ‘Be More Nana’.

FWR made me realise that consent is not a majority-wins-democracy. One solitary ‘no’ is a total veto.

‘Blackballs to people with balls’ as Nan might’ve said.

Now that DsD wants to be a boy and I’m reading all sorts of stuff on the history and politics of transsexualism, along with various psychological texts, I’m less and less convinced that trans is actually EVER a specific thing, it seems more like a maladaptive coping strategy for various other issues. I don’t doubt that some people are genuinely more content post transition, but I am starting to believe they are responding to symptoms, rather than an actual condition.

Anyway, there are no ways to write laws that keep the nice trans in and the bad trans out, the only place a line can be drawn is with sex, not gender.

No males in spaces, services or positions reserved for females. Ever.

(And viceversa because chaps deserve privacy and dignity too).

WhatKatyDidNot · 13/03/2020 08:40

What's an inner Beryl?!

If it's what I think it is - an anthropomorphic visualisation of female socialisation? - I don't have one of those. Thank god. All inner Beryls should be locked in a mind palace dungeon.

Goose does not seem to understand what woman-centred means while Rufus does even if she can't spell it! Woman-centred isn't the result of a theoretical poll of the most popular compromise women (and their inner Beryls!) are prepared to make. Woman-centred is considering only the needs and benefits to women as a class.

You took some perfectly clear posts very personally there, Goose. Hmm.

zanahoria · 13/03/2020 08:42

The look on Lisa Nandy's face in that interview said it all

static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2020/03/10/15/istock-476756323.v1.jpg

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/03/2020 08:43

I've got no Beryl at all, which has been very helpful on this issue. Fundamentally it's just not women's job to yield ground/give up rights/provide emotional support to anyone who's upset on demand, and those expecting us to do so are not asking us to be nice, they're asking us to be subservient. They are trying to force us into the support human class, which is not "kind" in any way.

In terms of women's spaces, women who are fine sharing them with some males do not have the right to give the sex segregated aspect of those spaces away on other women's behalf. If the answer is not a universal "yes" then it is a "no".

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/03/2020 08:47

We love our local reindeer even when we disagree with her! I'm sure I'm on the "too harsh sometimes" list and yet somehow she and I have been able to navigate that without escalating to bun throwing and/or fisticuffs.

To my understanding Beryl isn't just the internalized socialization that hurts a woman herself, she's a representation of the tendency to try to force other women to abide by that socialization too. She's what Nandy is deploying every time she bangs on about the child in her constituency as a means to shut other women up.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 13/03/2020 08:48

while Rufus does even if she can't spell it

Auto correct...thats my excuse and I’m sticking with it

(Thanks scapa Grin)

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