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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Piers Morgan with Lisa Nandy on Good Morning Britain

393 replies

musicposy · 10/03/2020 07:46

He’s trying to push Lisa Nandy as to whether any man can self identify and compete in woman’s sports. He’s actually trying to talk some sense and saying it’s unfair to woman’s rights. Making really good points about trans rights overriding woman’s rights.
She will not give a straight answer to anything.

OP posts:
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WrathofFaeKlopp · 14/03/2020 13:18

We shouldn't think that Lisa Nandy is naive.

She is a 40 year old mother and got elected an MP, she is the shadow secretary of state for energy and climate change and wants to lead the Labour Party to eventually become our prime minister.

Lisa Nandy is not naive.
Long Bailey is not naive.
Starmer is not naive.
They all know what they are doing.

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Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 14/03/2020 13:01

The risk is as above, that people will convince themselves nobody in government would be so stupid as to undo any legal protections women and children have.

This is exactly what my husband was saying 2 yrs ago (3?) it took me about 3 weeks of sending each new article that showed he was wrong for him to wake up.

I worry that unless someone is pushing it in your face it is entirely reasonable to think/hope that government would never be so stupid.

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FloralBunting · 14/03/2020 12:48

Nandy made a promise to one of them, a pitman called Keith: “I’m going to make it my mission to win you back.

See, I read that, and in my fevered imagination, it was a quote from the beginning of a cheesy romcom.

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R0wantrees · 14/03/2020 12:19

These comments by previous employers are interesting for what they don't say as much as what they do (as with many references)

"Balbir Chatrik, who is still Centrepoint’s head of policy, said Nandy had been “really passionate” in trying to change the rules on homeless 16- and 17-year-olds stuck in bed and breakfast accommodation.

Kathy Evans, who was head of policy at the Children’s Society, gave Nandy her next job, in 2005, and remembers she was “very good at building relationships with people she disagrees with”.

“She’s got great spirit. I think I probably spent more time disagreeing with her on matters of policy than most of the rest of the team. But disagreeing well, if that makes sense; disagreeing in a way that was always thought-provoking.”

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Italiangreyhound · 14/03/2020 12:14

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost I don't disagree with you.

She's not nice to women. Maybe she thinks because she is one she doesn't need to be.

She's failed women. And she will keep on doing it if she gets elected.

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Dreamprincess · 14/03/2020 12:09

She's not nice though

I think she is dripping with naivety - a sweet and endearing quality in a child, but disastrous in a possible future PM.

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CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 14/03/2020 12:01

She seems a nice person and committed but sadly not self aware.

She's not nice though is she, if she was nice she would at least listen to those that she disagrees with, she can't do that.

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R0wantrees · 14/03/2020 11:59

However, I also think that there seem to be a very small number of people who even with significant therapy struggle with sex dysphoria, who find some relief, potentially, with transition.

2003 Sunday Telegraph article:

‘I changed for all the wrong reasons,
and then it was too late...’
When, if ever, should a person have a sex-change operation, and whose decision is it to make? Julie Bindel reports on concerns that psychiatrists are too ready to recommend the knife
(extract)
Dr Fiona Mason, a forensic psychiatrist with an expertise in gender issues, is seriously concerned about the practices of some private clinics dealing with transsexualism. ‘I can’t imagine assessing anyone suffering from a serious disorder in under three hours. It can take three years to assess patients with complex problems. The trouble with some private clinics is that the patients are just given hormones after an hour-long appointment, which can have an irreversible effect on the body.’

Some critics are even going as far as to say that psychiatrists have not, in fact, ‘discovered’ transsexuals but created them. That is, that once ‘transsexual’ and ‘gender-identity disorder’ (GID) became common currency more people began interpreting their experience in these terms. Specialists working in gender-identity clinics made similar complaints about their patients as early as the mid-1970s. Patients were learning the symptoms of gender dysphoria and repeating them to clinicians in order to become candidates for sex-reassignment surgery. Sandra, a 25-year-old bus driver, changed sex four years ago. She is 6ft tall, with a low-cut blouse exposing her ample cleavage, and bright red hair framing a masculine face. ‘I easily learnt what I needed to say to doctors in order to get surgery, and I know other transsexuals do the same. I felt they couldn’t wait to get hold of my money. They would have diagnosed a German Shepherd as transsexual if it had enough money for the consultation.’

Today the best-known psychiatrist dealing with transsexualism is Dr Russell Reid, who runs a private practice as well as working in the NHS. In 2000 Reid was involved in controversy over the condition known as Body Dysmorphic Disorder (BDD), where sufferers can experience a desperate urge to rid themselves of a limb. Reid was one of the psychiatrists who referred two patients with BDD to a surgeon for leg amputations. ‘When I first heard of people wanting amputations it seemed bizarre in the extreme,’ he said in a television documentary at the time, ‘but then I thought, "I see transsexuals and they want healthy parts of their body removed in order to adjust to their idealised body image," and so I think that was the connection for me. I saw that people wanted to have their limbs off with equally as much degree of obsession and need.’

But to what degree should doctors be acquiescent to the ‘obsessions’ and ‘needs’ of patients; should there be a point at which they are duty-bound to say no? I asked Dr Reid how he decides on the suitability of surgery for a GID sufferer. ‘The patient makes their own diagnosis, and I confirm or refute it. If I am happy that they are serious about considering surgery in the future, I will prescribe hormones and expect them to live as a woman (or a man, if it is a female-to-male patient) for at least a year. If, after that time, they are mentally stable, living a reasonable and public life and functioning as a whole human being, and if the hormones have been effective, I would consider them worthy of surgery." (continues)
archive.li/1bcWN#selection-273.0-295.716

Russell Reid was found guilty of serious misconduct by GMC though allowed to continue to practice under restrictions. He was supported by prominent TRA such as Sarah Brown, Stephen Whittle etc

Wiki
"In 2006-2007, Reid was investigated by the General Medical Council (GMC), the regulatory body for doctors in the UK. A serious professional misconduct hearing opened following complaints brought by four doctors from the main NHS Gender Identity Clinic at Charing Cross hospital, west London, and some of his former patients. It is alleged that he breached international standards of care, set by the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association (HBIGDA) by inappropriately prescribing cross-gender hormones to patients and referring them for sex reassignment surgery without adequate assessment.

Britain's primary lobbying organization for transgender and transsexual people, Press for Change, was quoted as saying that Reid received support during the process from more than 150 patients as well as additional experts in the area"

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Italiangreyhound · 14/03/2020 11:53

Not sure who Smith is...

"In Wigan town hall, Smith and Nandy disagreed often. Now, he thinks she’s got her priorities all wrong. He despaired when she became mired in controversy after signing a pledge from the Labour Campaign for Trans Rights that vowed to expel members of some feminist groups from the party. “She’s made it clear during this election what she thinks about LGBT rights, but not HS2 … HS2 is much more important,” said Smith."

I think womem-s rights are more important than HS2! But I think she has lost the 'female' vote. It's a shame. She seems a nice person and committed but sadly not self aware.

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Italiangreyhound · 14/03/2020 11:44

Interesting article on the Guardian.

"Nandy made a promise to one of them, a pitman called Keith: “I’m going to make it my mission to win you back.”"

That's not going to win any elections!

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WeetabixBananaHipsterFFS · 14/03/2020 10:52

Starm Grin

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teawamutu · 14/03/2020 10:19

Grauniad is still trying to make Lisa happen: amp.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/13/refreshingly-untribal-lisa-nandy-labour-best-hope

Answers in words of one syllable, anyone?

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WhatKatyDidNot · 14/03/2020 09:31

It's like the truth about what's in chicken nuggets. Nobody really wants to know.

Until the disastrous consequences reach a point that they can't be ignored and then everyone gets out their pitchforks. I wish policy makers would understand that a feminist backlash is the one to listen to. The one that comes later will be a different thing altogether.

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WrathofFaeKlopp · 14/03/2020 09:21

The facetious side of me thinks that those women who are keen to include men could use men's facilities themselves, thereby making transwomen feel better about themselves and not inconveniencing women

That is a very good point.
Perhaps we should ask Nandy, Long Bailey, Black, Layla Moran whether this is something they would consider.

But that's not fair on men who deserve privacy too

You added that bit FlyingOink, this demonstrates that you are a considerate person and you care.
Those who trample over other people's rights clearly don't.

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FlyingOink · 14/03/2020 08:49

Everyone assumes that of course only harmless, penis free, homosexual males would be allowed into women's spaces, and the fact that exactly the opposite is happening is so insane that people just assume someone must have got it wrong.
This

The good thing about Nandy's car crash of an interview is that it makes more people aware that their assumptions on this subject (which they might not have spent much time considering) are all wrong.

The risk is as above, that people will convince themselves nobody in government would be so stupid as to undo any legal protections women and children have.

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FlyingOink · 14/03/2020 08:33

However, I also think that there seem to be a very small number of people who even with significant therapy struggle with sex dysphoria, who find some relief, potentially, with transition. I would like to see that as a last ditch solution and better solutions sought, but I don't really think I or anyone here is in a position to say that should never ever be done in any individual case.
I agree with some of this, but I think we need more studies post-transition because the information we have suggests the relief is short lived, making the surgery immoral and unnecessary.

My inclination would be to say that people in that situation would be admitted to social types of things, and possibly public toilets in certain instances though I'd prefer a third option, but not much else. Certainly they'd not count as women with regards to statistics or as women's officers or anything like that, and prisons would be right out IMO.
Now this I disagree with. Toilets are segregated by custom, not by law. If you go and pee in the gents you won't get arrested.
But it's impossible to divide "men who have had surgery" from "men who are voyeurs" or "men who cross dress" without actually examining their bodies. Plus the existence of a neovagina doesn't stop a man from being a predator, it's not the penis that goes off attacking women, it's the whole entire man, using his man brain and his will. The penis doesn't make him do it, it's his choice to be a predator and I won't accept any other argument on that.

Also, there are really very few "public" toilets nowadays.
Toilets in a cafe chain become the PR nightmare of the company. Likewise pub chains, likewise shopping malls, stations, airports, etc. Each of these companies fears the twitterati pile-on that ensues after a man is chucked out of the women's toilets.
Finally, as others have articulated much better than I can, it's not for you or for I to say that men can use those facilities. If one woman is uncomfortable, or scared, or removes herself from public life as a result, we've failed. The facetious side of me thinks that those women who are keen to include men could use men's facilities themselves, thereby making transwomen feel better about themselves and not inconveniencing women. But that's not fair on men who deserve privacy too.

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FlyingOink · 14/03/2020 08:11

All that aside, the fact of the matter is that those wishing to transition do not receive adequate and neutral counselling, let alone psychoanalysis.

When someone is desperate to receive a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and start the pathway of medical transitioning, they don't go for psychoanalysis or any deep thinking talking therapy.

This is another fact that needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

People don't realise 95% of "transwomen" have a penis. People don't realise that there is no psychotherapy before transition. People don't realise that puberty blockers are end-stage cancer drugs that cause your jaw to fall off. People don't realise that putting a woman on testosterone means her vagina and womb atrophy painfully and a hysterectomy is needed, and that her risk of heart attack soars.
People don't realise that "chemical castration" doesn't work and when they tried it in prison the sex offenders transitioned (and didn't take the meds reliably, strangely enough).
People don't realise that there are surgeons who will create a neovagina out of the scrotal sac leaving the penis in situ and that there are men who want and have had this surgery.
People don't realise that Tavistock clinicians walking out of the job telling the public that the parents of the children they are transing are homophobic aren't making it up.

It's like the truth about what's in chicken nuggets. Nobody really wants to know.

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TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/03/2020 23:05

Good luck with the isolation period, DuLANG!

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RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 13/03/2020 23:04

I didnt have much of an issue with things as they stood a few years ago

Now there are changes and people are talking bullshit about self ID and especially coming out with ‘but how can we segregate by sex’ bollocks when we’ve ALWAYS segregated by sex...

Well thats brought it to my attention. And thats whats going to cause problems, because eventually its going to be brought to everyone’s attention. And the last thing the tras want is for everyone to be thinking

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TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/03/2020 22:59

I can't understand why it isn't obvious, but it seems to be a conflation that is being reinforced constantly.

I think it's the "oh but they'd never allow" problem. What's being demanded, and permitted, is so outrageous that most people just can't wrap their heads around the fact that it's happening. Everyone assumes that of course only harmless, penis free, homosexual males would be allowed into women's spaces, and the fact that exactly the opposite is happening is so insane that people just assume someone must have got it wrong.

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Justhadathought · 13/03/2020 22:55

But you seem to want to make some women's things open to some male trans people, but only the right sort of male trans people

Is not the issue that they already are open to some male trans people, and have been, quite legally, for many years? What has escalated the issue is the advent of radical transgenderism and the prospect of Self ID?

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R0wantrees · 13/03/2020 20:18

Guardian October 2018
Julian Norman: ‘Shifting legal sands are poor foundation for change’
The background to the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (GRA) was the case of Christine Goodwin, a trans woman, who took the UK government to the European Court of Human Rights. She argued that the government’s failure to recognise her in law as a woman breached article 8 of the European convention on human rights, which covers respect for one’s private and family life.

The court upheld the complaint, pointing out that there was no threat of “overturning the entire system” given that there were estimated to be only 2,000-5,000 transsexuals in the UK, and that although there would be legal repercussions these were not insurmountable “if confined to the case of fully achieved and post-operative transsexuals”.

The government responded by introducing the GRA. To acquire a gender recognition certificate (GRC) an applicant must provide evidence of a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, a condition of feeling one’s gender identity to be opposite to that assigned at birth. "(continues)
Julian Norman is a barrister at Drystone Chambers and the chair of FiLiA, a women’s rights charity
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/19/gender-recognition-act-reforms-six-legal-views-transgender-debate

GRC were never limited to people identified as 'transsexuals' or those who have had specific surgeries.

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nauticant · 13/03/2020 19:46

I think the trans lobby are desperate to muddy the waters around self ID and the tiny number of what some people consider to be genuine transsexuals - the ones who have had hormones and surgery.

Around the time of enacting the GRA it was estimated that there were 5,000 transsexuals in the UK. These days, when it comes to transgender people in the UK, one number bandied about is 500,000. Those numbers suggest that 1% of transgender people are transsexual. What are the other 99%?

There are plenty of arguments to say that that number is too low, that number is too high etc, but it's impossible not to form the distinct impression that the percentage of transgender people who are transsexual is a very small proportion and the rest are something else. (Well, a number of all kinds of different things else.)

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R0wantrees · 13/03/2020 13:48

Sheila Jeffries 'What Is Gender?' Discusses the wider aims of the men's sexual rights movement & describes how some males sought to join women's events in the 1970's & were refused.

October 2017 (first 'We Need to Talk' event)


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R0wantrees · 13/03/2020 13:42

More than that, people aren't wrong to want to take a wider view in terms of political solutions, a limited one will inevitably fail - that's the failure of identity politics and it's worthwhile being conscious that identity politics in part grew out of feminism.

The policies which have been brought about by trans activists predate 'identity politics'
Its a shame you havent watched the BBC 1970's program I linked to yesterday as this becomes very apparent.
It is a men's rights movement.

Also interesting to see how current men's rights activists/self described 'anti feminists' are increasingly speaking about the blame being with feminists. I was looking at this earlier in the week.

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