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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Piers Morgan with Lisa Nandy on Good Morning Britain

393 replies

musicposy · 10/03/2020 07:46

He’s trying to push Lisa Nandy as to whether any man can self identify and compete in woman’s sports. He’s actually trying to talk some sense and saying it’s unfair to woman’s rights. Making really good points about trans rights overriding woman’s rights.
She will not give a straight answer to anything.

OP posts:
Italiangreyhound · 11/03/2020 17:33

I didn't say it was bullying, I said 'It felt like bullying almost'. that's how it felt to watch.

I completely agree she was wrong, wrong to go on and discuss this when she isn't capable of making herself understood. To me it shows she is not leader-material. She is follower-material.

So I agree with you, PreseaCombatir. I am not calling it bullying.

CharlieParley you may right, I don't know her thoughts enough. I think she had a shot at leadership, I thought that a few years ago, now I don't.

Italiangreyhound · 11/03/2020 17:37

SarahTancredi I have 100% been socialized as female. But I kind of like it! I like being me, I just wish all men were socialized female too!

Completely agree,"The men are happy to let her get on with it cos it doesnt affect them, they like to see women make arses of themselves and they are thrilled it's now at the point where they could drop their pants and shit on the studio floor in front of millions of people and still come across as more credible."

I think women have sadly played into their hands by being so amicable. which is why I LOVE the strong women on here who do not play that game. But I cannot pretend to be one of them, I am cheering from the sidelines! I wish that genuine compassion could reign, which does not make it harder for everyone to help one person but makes it better for everyone.

Italiangreyhound · 11/03/2020 17:37

SOME women....NAWALT!

SarahTancredi · 11/03/2020 17:41

I think sometimes brutal honesty is compassion.

It may seem harsh to say look mate you sound like an.idiot but if perhaps they had listened instead of feeling ganged up on then maybe they wouldnt have gone on tv and made a complete fool of themselves.

PreseaCombatir · 11/03/2020 17:43

I got what you meant italiangreyhound
I think that kind of empathy is what she relies on tbh.

Needmoresleep · 11/03/2020 17:50

She has an impressive victim face.

And inherently appears more likeable than PM.

However he is a very successful journalist/broadcaster. She will not make (a good) Prime Minister.

Danceswithwarthogs · 11/03/2020 17:55

What made me angry was her completely bizarre strategy of taking a very specific question and wanging on about something completely separate

Question about self-Id trans women.... talks about caster semenya

Question about women’s sports... talks about marginalised communities and this young person in her constituency... presumably they aren’t an Olympic athlete.

Like if he’s asked a doctor a question about Coronavirus and they told him all about diabetes.

When there are young women up and down the country putting hours and hours in at the gym/track/pool, giving up so much of their life to a particular sport, fighting for the chance to qualify for top flight competition, possibly only with a performance window of a few years approaching, knowing that gaining 100g, missing a training session or having pmt could make the split second difference between qualifying or not...

And the possible leader of the Labour Party can’t see that allowing male bodied people to compete is basically saying “don’t bother love - validating the feelings of a few people who find their gender identity problematic is more important than you and your opportunities/safety” Not terribly caring.

LittleRootie · 11/03/2020 18:31

I completely agree she was wrong, wrong to go on and discuss this when she isn't capable of making herself understood

But surely that isn't what was wrong - it wasn't a question of her 'not being capable of making herself understood' - it's a question of what she is trying to say being wrong in itself.

Morgan asked the same simple question several times - that can come across as a hectoring/bullying technique but often seems to happen where the interviewee is deliberately trying to dodge giving an answer.

Goosefoot · 11/03/2020 18:38

What made me angry was her completely bizarre strategy of taking a very specific question and wanging on about something completely separate

It's my understanding that this is how people in politics are now trained to deal with problem questions.

Mockerswithnoknockers · 11/03/2020 18:40

They are all media-trained within an inch of their lives.

You don't think anyone actually says "We have been very clear....."

FloralBunting · 11/03/2020 18:41

This bullying thing is such bunk. How on earth would she have ever coped with the forthright challenge of Paxman at his height, famously not letting politicians wriggle away from answering a question?

Goosefoot · 11/03/2020 18:42

Morgan asked the same simple question several times - that can come across as a hectoring/bullying technique but often seems to happen where the interviewee is deliberately trying to dodge giving an answer.

What I find is this works if the interviewer has enough intelligence to really understand the question. Not only intelligence either, but knowledge of what is being discussed.

I've seen it fail spectacularly when the person being interviewed was more intelligent and knowledgable, and the interviewer keeps banging on the question because they haven't understood that it's been answered.

R0wantrees · 11/03/2020 18:56

The potential issues are I think a lack of reading for understanding skill or awareness in how to check sources, recognise propaganda, analyse & interrogate text.

Danceswithwarthogs · 11/03/2020 23:29

Showed DH on catchup, peak transed him (even though he generally doesn’t like piers)

LangClegsOpinionIsNoted · 12/03/2020 07:15

Careful dances, I think references to mountain climbing are on the banned words list.

Danceswithwarthogs · 12/03/2020 07:21

Oops sorry

OverByYer · 12/03/2020 07:26

Is there a word for the confusion one feels when you find yourself in agreement with Piers Morgan?

DickKerrLadies · 12/03/2020 07:52

I had a homebirth and my baby didn't come out with a wristband - what sex is my 5 year old, Lisa?

Mockerswithnoknockers · 12/03/2020 07:55

I had a homebirth and my baby didn't come out with a wristband - what sex is my 5 year old, Lisa?

You need to book an appointment with the Assigner General who will bring the sorting hat.

StandWithYou · 12/03/2020 07:58

I also showed the clip to DH, who totally gets it and finds the illogical arguments baffling, and his wishes more interviewers would take this approach and commented ‘it’s a weird feeling to be cheering Piers Morgan on’ and ‘it seems to be right wing men who are the only ones questioning this’.

DickKerrLadies · 12/03/2020 07:58

You need to book an appointment with the Assigner General who will bring the sorting hat.

Grin
R0wantrees · 12/03/2020 09:19

‘it seems to be right wing men who are the only ones questioning this’.

2017 Dame Jenni Murray was publicily sanctioned by the BBC for 'questioning' in her Sunday Times article which followed India Willoughby's sexist comments on R4 Woman's Hour:

'Jenni Murray: Be trans, be proud — but don’t call yourself a “real woman”
Can someone who has lived as a man, with all the privilege that entails, really lay claim to womanhood? It takes more than a sex change and make-up'
(extract)
The fury that a male-to-female transsexual could be so ignorant of the politics that have preoccupied women for centuries hit me again last year — 16 years after I had met Carol. This time I was speaking to another trans woman, India Willoughby, who had hit the headlines after appearing on the ITV programme Loose Women.

India held firmly to her belief that she was a “real woman”, ignoring the fact that she had spent all of her life before her transition enjoying the privileged position in our society generally accorded to a man. In a discussion about the Dorchester hotel’s demands that its female staff should always wear make-up, have a manicure and wear stockings over shaved legs, she was perfectly happy to go along with such requirements. There wasn’t a hint of understanding that she was simply playing into the stereotype — a man’s idea of what a woman should be.

She described hairy legs on a woman as “dirty”. But hairy legs are not considered dirty in a man. Did she not know that the question of whether a woman should shave her legs or her armpits had been a topic of debate among women for an awfully long time? And that to describe a woman who chose not to shave as dirty was insulting and again suggested an ignorance of sexual politics?

Unsurprisingly, my polite and informed line of questioning exposed me to a barrage of criticism on social media. I was a Terf and didn’t understand what Simone de Beauvoir, the author of one of the great feminist tracts, The Second Sex, meant when she wrote: “One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman.”

As a matter of fact, I have understood perfectly what de Beauvoir meant ever since I read her as a teenage girl. Her subject was that “second sex”. She used the word sex advisedly.

Your sex, male or female, is what you’re born with and determines whether you’ll provide the sperm or the eggs in the reproductive process. What de Beauvoir was analysing was gendered socialisation." (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/be-trans-be-proud-but-dont-call-yourself-a-real-woman-frtld7q5c

Piers Morgan regularly defends & asserts that Willoughby (his friend & colleague) has become a woman.

Needmoresleep · 12/03/2020 10:00

R0,

I suspect that PM does not think about things too deeply. From his macho perspective, any male prepared to undergo SRS has earned the right to be considered the opposite sex, following in a long traditional of Jan Morris, April Ashley etc. It's the starting point for the 2004 Gender Recognition Act, which was passed with relatively little protest, and was correctly expected to cover around 5,000 people.

In his eyes though, anyone who has not gone to such extreme lengths, and simply wants to self-identify into women's sports, is cheating.

I think PM has got it right in terms of his audience, and that the majority of men and probably many women would draw similar distinctions. People are sympathetic to the concept of dysphoria and will probably decide that if someone is prepared to mutilate themselves they deserve sympathy, and indeed will then pose less of a threat.

The big issue is that many are not aware of the distinction of transexual and transgender. They do not realise that 80% of MtF transgender people undertake no medical treatment at all. (I think that is the right figure.) If PM can draw people's attention to some of the craziness of self-ID, and if he can call out our unthinking politicians and get the debate going, he will have made a useful contribution.

I don't think it is worth expecting a lot more from him. I suspect what you see with PM is what you get.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 12/03/2020 10:19

The thing is, right now the most basic step is that men with penis's shouldn't be in woman's spaces
That's the very first step to get out into the public consciousness.
Once that is accepted, which it isn't yet, but will be it's the main line of thought most men speaking out are following....

The next step will be intruding to the public the concept that a man without a penis isn't a woman, which again will be done, but over time.

It's all talking time.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 12/03/2020 10:21

We haven't even got to that first step yet, even though 90% of the public agree with it.

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