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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it ever acceptable to hire a cleaner?

184 replies

Dances · 09/03/2020 19:27

The fucking Guardian, where 'sex work is work' calling out women for using cleaners.

God I'm so depressed with these arseholes

mobile.twitter.com/guardian/status/1236572475154223105

OP posts:
DidoLamenting · 10/03/2020 21:16

It's just bizarre to claim as feminist the perspective that the economic exploitation of women's labour is not a feminist concern

It's just beyond bizarre to have as your starting point that a woman employing another woman as a cleaner is "economic exploitation of women's labour"

Goosefoot · 11/03/2020 13:24

While all of this is still 'women's issues' we won't get anywhere. Same as with other issues that are actually for society but get framed as 'women's issues' subtext it's up to women to sort them out. Men carry on as usual without a second thought.

I don't think that's true, lots of men think about the implicatons of capitalism. Or not lots, but as many as can be expected when most people doesn't even understand that it is something that could be questioned.

It gets brouht up in the context of women's issues because when you have a capitalist economy, it tends to most advantageous to those who hold the most power and to whom the benefits of the labour of those below accrue. So Bill Gates (for example) is so rich not only because of his own work but because capitalism delivers him a part of the value of what his many workers produce.He doesn't have to do anything to make that happen, it's a systemic feature - in fact avoiding it becoming too extreme requires interventions.

So one problem is that due to biology, women are disadvantaged in the world of paid work, so can often be at the bottom of the heap. (Though in most western countries now I believe unskilled men are worse off.)

But the other question is around work that is not part of the money economy. This kind of work is interesting because it doesn't get transferred anywhere, the benefit goes to the person who does it or to whomever they do the work for (a neighbour, a friend, their kids.) Since capitalism has existed, more and more areas of life have gone from being of this second type of work to the first, there is a real push for that. Many of the areas that have been work for self have until recently been the work of women, domestic work, childcare, other types of care. (Not all obviously, outdoor work as someone said is often more male dominated.) So as it becomes more common to outsource these, it represents a greater commercialisation of life.

Whether you see that as good or bad, it will tend to affect women a lot, so it becomes a women's issue.

fascinated · 11/03/2020 13:26

Exactly, Goosefoot.

fascinated · 11/03/2020 13:26

Invisible women = invisible labour, too

Goosefoot · 11/03/2020 13:32

TBH I think we'd be better off to push as hard as we can in the other direction, and return as much as possible to the underground economy. And yes, that does include things like fixing your own toaster and growing your own food if you can. I read a small article recently that said that most people under 30 have never actually fixed anything.

fascinated · 11/03/2020 13:37

That means people working less, wanting less...etc... let’s see!

fascinated · 12/03/2020 10:23

Thought of this thread this morning as I listen to Radio Scotland phone in about the importance of cleaning ... representatives from a couple of commercial companies (I think specialist ones) on. Woman commenting saying that cleaners in general, in every company/workplace, are undervalued....

Also occurred to me — Maslow‘s hierarchy of needs and the idea of „hygiene factors“ as something that we take for granted before we start on „real“ goals. It doesn’t surprise me, therefore, how the work involved in cleaning and keeping things hygienic is rarely given much recognition.

VegetableMunge · 12/03/2020 10:47

Lots of men think about the implications of capitalism, but they dont do so with the cultural expectation that care and cleaning are inherently more their responsibility. So there isn't the underlying idea that paying a cleaner or childcare worker is shirking their duty. That makes it different from when women do it.

Hoggleludo · 12/03/2020 11:16

My cleaner. Is my friend. She was my maid of honour.

She's amazing!!!! She's wonderful. She helps me. She makes my life easier. She went through what can only be described as one of the toughest thing ever where she was left alone. With her child. No money. No house. No roof over her head. I rushed to her. To give her money. I went to pay for food. She refused all of these. I understand. She has pride. So I did the next best thing. I asked her if she'd clean my house and I'd pay her. She agreed. She's now incredibly successful. I'm so proud of her. We helped each other. That's what friends do. On the plus side. She's fucking awesome at cleaning. She's the last thing I'd get rid of now.

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