Is it ever acceptable to hire a cleaner?

[Dances]

The fucking Guardian, where 'sex work is work' calling out women for using cleaners.

God I'm so depressed with these arseholes

mobile.twitter.com/guardian/status/1236572475154223105

Of course - why wouldn’t it be?

Individuals on here may well respect their cleaner and and pay them well and not leave foul messes for them to clean up and if that’s the case then great. However this is not the general experience for the majority of women who work as cleaners you only have to speak to them to discover this. I’m not suggesting that cleaners should get paid the same as a doctor but they should have the same respect as anyone doctor or not and often they don’t.

I am disappointed that accusations of jealousy over not being able to afford cleaners is behind criticism of using them because that’s not the case and to say so seems like a defensive reaction to me.

The same critique does apply to men who use domestic help but their is perhaps more hypocrisy from those who claim to be feminists of either sex.

Yes I have one because it's my money and I'll pay for a legal service that my cleaner has decided fits her life if I want to.

IME the people who look down most on those who do 'women's work' are men.

This relates to the fact that even the 'nice' men, deep down, feel that this work is not their problem. Hence doing such a shit job when they do, not 'noticing' stuff that needs doing. And all reinforced by society with people talking about dads babysitting or being amazing if they do the laundry etc etc

So again I would suggest that putting the blame that 'women's work' is low paid and undervalued, the exploitation of women at the door of other women, in a capitalist patriarchal society, is to give them what they want, isn't it? Business and men get to carry on as usual with no guilt while women shoulder all the guilt for, well let's be honest, everything is presented as the fault of women in the end, isn't it!

Anyone who thinks cleaning for others isn't a skill that takes fitness, intelligence and common sense has never tried it themselves, or managed someone else doing it.

It's a bit like baking birthday cakes - something everyone can do for themselves if they put their mind to it, perhaps with varying degrees of success, but not many can do to the standard of being paid for it.

I don't know if anyone remembers Mma Ramotswe in the Ladies' Detective Agency books set in Botswana. In one book she visits the house of a university professor and the garden is overgrown, the house is dirty and he has no cook or housekeeper. She is outraged that he hasn't done his civic duty and employed people to do all these things, and ends up berating him for selfishly hoarding his money and not spreading it around to people that need it!

Individuals in low paid jobs are generally not respected as much as high status. This is capitalism and yes, women suffer even more than men. This is not however something that individual women who employ cleaners can change.

However my personal struggles with the patriarchy don’t make it ok for me to exploit another woman in perhaps an even more precarious position than me

That is just virtue signalling. Why would employing a cleaner be "exploiting another woman"? It's up to you to set fair terms and conditions

Presumably you grow all your own food and make all your own clothes (recycled from old materials) never eat out in a restaurant and never stay in a hotel or even use the NHS.

I mean, with your high moral standards heaven forfend that you might be benefiting from the labours of a lowly paid person in a precarious position.

IME the people who look down most on those who do 'women's work' are men

Hmm , I think it suits a certain type of feminist and/or anti- capitalist to peddle this notion as a given. I'm not at all convinced it is true.

Should I feel sorry for my gardener, and my window cleaner, too? And the man who has his own business valeting cars?

I speak from my experience Dido.

You have disagreed but not actually said why you believe that it's not men who look down most on 'women's work'.

The men at my old job didn't even notice the cleaners!
All the women said hello.

If men think 'women's work' is not beneath them why don't they do more of it I wonder.

They pretty much all, to a greater or lesser extent, look to women to do it. Whether paid or unpaid. Leaving cups all over tables after meetings. Leaving crumbs all over tables. In homes, having to be told what to do then doing a crap job. It's everywhere.

I read this article at the time and I think her guilt is misplaced and ott but I do think that she makes a valid point when she says that we don't value the work of cleaners enough and that we can't claim to be true feminists if we don't pay our (overwhelmingly female) cleaners a fair wage. I don't see what there is to get worked up about unless you are someone employing a cleaner and paying them considerably less than the minimum wage???

Because the topics of why 'women's work' is low valued and low paid, why women in particular should feel guilty about outsourcing cleaning but not anyone else, etc etc, are all good topics for fwr

The same critique does apply to men who use domestic help but their is perhaps more hypocrisy from those who claim to be feminists of either sex.

The same critique manifestly does not apply to men. Otherwise it would be, well, being applied.

This article assumed the feminist in question was a woman for a reason, and I'd bet my left tit is isn't because they feel only women can be feminists. There's a reason why this argument, framed in this exact way, is so well trodden. It's because we hold women to different standards than we do men. Hence the article and the thread we're having about it.

Sure, sometimes those making the argument that middle and upper class women exploit poorer women will agree, when the fact that they've let men off the hook is pointed out to them. As an afterthought. But if you were saying the exploiting is by more privileged women rather than by more privileged people in the first place, you were not applying the same critique to men.

It's an interesting point about window cleaners fascinated. I think of myself as someone who doesn't have a cleaner, but we do pay a person to clean our windows. A bloke, as it happens. The arguments about house cleaning could just as well apply to him: he doesn't have any special equipment that DH and I don't already possess or could get easily. We live in a bog standard two storey postwar terrace, so no unusual or very high windows requiring particular training or care. He's no doubt better at it than either of us would be, but I'd bet most house cleaners are better at that than I am too. We just prefer to pay him for the work rather than do it ourselves.

Yet there are no articles about window cleaners, and I bet I'm not the only person who didn't think of a window cleaner in the same way as a house cleaner. Remarkable coincidence, I'm sure, that even domestic, low rise window cleaning is a traditionally male occupation.

Also the op point that according to this paper men paying women for sex is good, but women paying women for cleaning is bad, is really interesting.

Was everyone expected to do their own housework? Something tells me that professional men weren't.

Not the married ones, certainly, that would have been a blind spot in that culture.

Her husband, and son, however, all pitched in equally, being more enlightened.

There is of course a big issue with class in this country (coming from a working class family myself who a couple of generations back were living in extreme poverty), but the solution to this is not individual women refusing to employ cleaners, but better access to education and other opportunities, aspirations and role models for working class kids, higher wages for everyone rather than assuming benefits will subsidise wages from multinational companies, better childcare, better rights and conditions for the self employed etc. etc.

You sound defensive to be honest. Saying the wages you pay are above living wage for example. That’s still not great is it.

I’m not defensive, we pay what I think is a fair rate for work to our cleaner, and don’t go through an agency so there isn’t a layer taking a cut of it. And for the nursery we use, we deliberately chose one that had staff on good ts & cs (e.g. 6 months fully paid maternity leave and a defined benefit pension scheme).

Part of making a noise etc is by using your purchasing power in a more responsible way if you can, and I was pointing out that I do that.

You have disagreed but not actually said why you believe that it's not men who look down most on 'women's work'

I can only speak from my own personal experience but I'm from a background where many of the men I know socially and professionally employ domestic help and I have never come across the attitude you suggest.

I don't actually believe people look down on cleaners- I think it suits a certain type of feminist and/or Marxist to pretend this is true.

why women in particular should feel guilty about outsourcing cleaning

I've never felt guilty about this - or for outsourcing any of the jobs I can't do or don't want to do.

There does seem to be a certain type of virtue- signalling feminist who seems determined that I should feel guilty.

This is where marxist/socialist dominance of women’s movements leads.

Yet there are no articles about window cleaners, and I bet I'm not the only person who didn't think of a window cleaner in the same way as a house cleaner

I don't understand your point. I've employed cleaners, window cleaners and gardeners. I didn't treat any of them differently. I was very grateful they were doing a job I don't have time to do.

If you don't think of a house cleaner in the same way as a window cleaner that says a lot about you.

BeetrootRocks

I speak from my experience Dido

And I speak from mine.

It seems to me there are only two options.

Firstly, you take the view that some work shouldn't ever be outsourced. In which case, as a feminist you have to advocate for men to do a fair share of it too, and also look at what happens when a particular individual or family unit has too much of it to be able to cope with. So for example, nearly half of women will be carers before they're 50. In that scenario, if there's a conflict between domestic and caring duties, perhaps an only daughter with two parents requiring support, how is that resolved? If you include childcare in that list of work, and after all childcare workers are hardly better off than house cleaners, what provisions are you going to put in place to facilitate that?

Or secondly, you take the view that it's fine to pay for some work to be done on one's behalf such as cleaning and caring, but in which case you need to advocate for a fair rate to be paid. This certainly requires examination of the way we've structured our society and economy, but that needs to be full examination. Not relating only to the individual decisions of those members of society who happen to be in possession of two X chromosomes. I'd argue that not only does this mean scrutinising men in the same way we do women, but also looking at governmental policy and the society that the economic policies of the last few decades have created.

Firstly, you take the view that some work shouldn't ever be outsourced

Which is frankly bonkers.

Precisely, Vegetable. All work that needs to be done, paid and unpaid, and by both sexes, should be examined and quantified, and discussions need to be had about who should do it and how and for what reward.