Is it ever acceptable to hire a cleaner?

[Dances]

The fucking Guardian, where 'sex work is work' calling out women for using cleaners.

God I'm so depressed with these arseholes

mobile.twitter.com/guardian/status/1236572475154223105

@VegetableMunge Great Post!

I sometimes think that guilt is the strongest tool that has been employed to marginalise women. Don’t fall for it.

I have to say, the professions I know where a lot of men employ cleaners, are full of entitled dicks. And I am not normally inclined to be down on men and have worked with mainly men in most of my career.

As far as whether or not men also should avoid employing domestic cleaners, yes, the question is the same. I believe the woman who wrote the article was simply writing from a personal POV, which seems to be all many journalists are up to these days.

I think that would be more workable than arguing that nobody should ever pay anyone for domestic cleaning, yes.

As far as whether or not men also should avoid employing domestic cleaners, yes, the question is the same. I believe the woman who wrote the article was simply writing from a personal POV, which seems to be all many journalists are up to these days.

Still, none of that happened in a vacuum. The odds of there not being a male journalist employed at the Guardian who uses cheap female labour for traditionally female work seem remote, but either the men didn't feel the need to write a book about it or the paper chose not to run it. Part of this discussion must of necessity involve exploring why that is.

My guess as far as the facts is that this woman considers herself a feminist and got to thinking about the implications of hiring someone else to do that work in her home while she does work that is better paid. And since she needed to write an article to get paid, there is was.

Would a man have written thinking the same way, maybe not. I suspect it would have widened out into a question of paid domestic work more generally without the feminism element. There are certainly occasional articles written by men looking at the question of work and class, even in the Guardian, often they are from the more interesting writers.

I am thinking about pregnancy as outsourced 'job'.

If the problem is not that society looks down on cleaners (that's what I asked earlier) then what is the problem? Is it that some women who call themselves feminists are happy to use a cleaner, who is most likely to be a woman, and that they don't pay her fairly or treat her with respect?

Sorry I hope it doesn't come across as if I'm deliberately not understanding.

Reflection of the left’s priorities? Identity politics over class struggle?

Harriet I think possibly it's where the authors politics (thinking about class inequality especially of women, our position in society, etc etc) meets her personal (hiring a woman who is less well paid than her) meets her socialisation (women should do this stuff for themselves and smile while they do it) = conflicted feelings and guilt.

That would be my guess.

My cleaner is a bloke, does this change anything?

Themselves and everybody else tbh

While all of this is still 'women's issues' we won't get anywhere. Same as with other issues that are actually for society but get framed as 'women's issues' subtext it's up to women to sort them out. Men carry on as usual without a second thought.

Buster the woman who wrote the article says yes that makes it fine...?!

Yes, mine too beetroot. This is why there aren't any directly analogous male articles. There can't be, because the socialisation and the societal expectations don't exist in the same way.

The things that are mainly driven by men are way way worse than hiring cleaners though.

Conversation about state of planet, war, sexual violence exploitation etc are probably not for this thread though.

They're always framed as society issues though

Even in the case of sexual violence exploitation, people try to frame it as a people thing, that's the one that gets most pushback though as it's so obviously wonky.

I think there is a huge level of hypocrisy being displayed in this thread.

Why is a woman employing a cleaner morally repugnant?

I asked it before of one virtue- signaller- those of you wringing your hands over this-

Do you grow all your own food?
Make all your own clothes out of recycled materials?
Never buy any food in a restaurant or supermarket?
Never stay in a hotel?

With that topic you have two approaches

1. Women's issue for women to sort

When women say hold on a minute, this is a society issue and we can't sort it by ourselves

Next step is 2. It's a people issue no point identifying sex, all violence is wrong etc

It's the same old thing about different expectations around responsibility, guilt, caring, and restrictions on behaviour around the sexes.

Anyway, that's going off topic sorry!

Only just noticed this now, so replying:

I don't understand your point. I've employed cleaners, window cleaners and gardeners. I didn't treat any of them differently. I was very grateful they were doing a job I don't have time to do.

That I don't see any logical reason why we should think of them differently. And that since we evidently do and this is clearly not limited to me, given that there isn't a parallel genre of guiltily writing about employing people, probably disproportionately male to do more traditionally male jobs, it would be worth thinking critically about why this is.

If you don't think of a house cleaner in the same way as a window cleaner that says a lot about you.

Perhaps if I'd come up with that idea in a vacuum it might.

In imaginary world:
How is it ok for me to clean FOR FREE after my husband but not ok to employ someone to do same work? That would also mean to do same work for someone who pays you for it is wrong, but for free ok?
Where are you if you are momentarily stuck with little kids, entitled husband who is not moving out and on purpose pissing around toilet, and seemingly endless months until you are divorced and free? You work for free. From your work benefits someone who is abusing you. It's not like you can not clean if your kids are there.

'Why is a woman employing a cleaner morally repugnant?'

Who said this?

Are you reading a different thread.

General temperature from what I've read is it's silly and quite frankly sexist to lambast women for hiring other women to do cleaning.

'I asked it before of one virtue- signaller- those of you wringing your hands over this-'

Who did you ask?

There has been 1 person on the thread I think who said it was not right to hire a cleaner, out of all the posters on the thread. Maybe two, not going to read it all again!

Window cleaners get paid more than cleaners round here.

Interesting to think why that might be.

Also interesting indoors is more women and outdoors is more men, echoing Victorian 'separate spheres' stuff.

Those ideas got very entranced in national subconscious I think. Their ideas around lots of things did tbh

All very interesting

'How is it ok for me to clean FOR FREE after my husband but not ok to employ someone to do same work? That would also mean to do same work for someone who pays you for it is wrong, but for free ok?'

Comes back to sex roles and who is supposed to do what for who. Is the bottom line.