Is it ever acceptable to hire a cleaner?

[Dances]

The fucking Guardian, where 'sex work is work' calling out women for using cleaners.

God I'm so depressed with these arseholes

mobile.twitter.com/guardian/status/1236572475154223105

One issue that does touch on sex roles though is privacy. I would be a lot less comfortable with a male cleaner....

Someone will be along to tell you off for that in a second, let's count

I was just thinking that! Cat among pigeons...

It’s on here that I have learnt about Menstruation Fetish, though ... and my right to have my own boundaries....

However my personal struggles with the patriarchy don’t make it ok for me to exploit another woman in perhaps an even more precarious position than me. Let’s face these jobs are looked down on in the U.K, the doctor who pays a cleaner to scrub her toilet bowl probably doesn’t see the cleaner as in the same level value wise as herself

I asked whoever posted this virtue signalling post?

Does this poster grow all her own food? Make all her own clothes? Never use restaurants or supermarkets or the NHS for that matter.

Given her high standards I assume she would not want to benefit from the exploited labour of any person.

The utter nonsense of this virtue signalling is that if she directly employs a cleaner she can ensure fair conditions in a way she cannot in other situations.

BeetrootRocks
Because the topics of why 'women's work' is low valued and low paid, why women in particular should feel guilty about outsourcing cleaning but not anyone else, etc etc, are all good topics for fwr

You know until I first read on FWR this often repeated nonsense about "oh, it's so un-feminist to employ a cleaner" no one ever tried to make me feel guilty or suggest that I should feel guilty.

I'm thinking of employing s cleaner, I have health problems that make cleaning extremely hard work since I have a lack of physical coordination and bending is painful. The thing that has stopped me is that it seems lazy and unacceptable since I am not a middle class high earner.

I hired a gardener last year for the first time, no shame in that at all.

A friend set up an ironing business working from home, is that acceptable? She worked round her young kids and earned a surprisingly high amount. Is that ok?

Are they looked down on? I've employed domestic help for over 30 years. I don't look down on them. I'm suspicious of this claim. I think it's put forward by those who either (a) resent that some people can afford cleaners or (b) want to put women down for employing cleaners.

Sorry I asked if it's because they're looked down because I was finding it hard to understand what some on this thread mean is bad about hiring cleaners.

As to whether it's true, it definitely can be true that some people do look down on others because of their job. Not just cleaners, but as I mentioned before retail, also hospitality. You only have to spend some time working in one of those jobs to discover that. I don't think that it's down to indvidual feminist women to stop employing or using the services of people in those jobs though. That sounds more like removing yourself from the problem, rather than doing anything to fix it. (I'm still worried I've completely missed the point).

You know until I first read on FWR this often repeated nonsense about "oh, it's so un-feminist to employ a cleaner" no one ever tried to make me feel guilty or suggest that I should feel guilty.

Frankly I've seen more posts on here disagree with that perspective than advocate it.

However my personal struggles with the patriarchy don’t make it ok for me to exploit another woman in perhaps an even more precarious position than me. Let’s face these jobs are looked down on in the U.K, the doctor who pays a cleaner to scrub her toilet bowl probably doesn’t see the cleaner as in the same level value wise as herself

Yes like this post for example. We can't all be doctors and it seems to me that it would be much better for people to just treat others with respect and to pay fairly, instead of seeing it as a choice between exploiting or not using... Use the service but don't exploit.

Is the problem that cleaners are generally female or that cleaning is seen as women's work?

This such a load of bollocks. It is acceptable to employ a cleaner. End of story.

I don't understand the hand - wringing going on. If you use any paid for service or buy any goods from a supermarket what on earth is the difference?

I don't understand the hand - wringing going on. If you use any paid for service or buy any goods from a supermarket what on earth is the difference?

Yes. The “exploitation” model casts all low-paid workers (retail staff, hospital porters, care workers, street sweepers...) as victims without agency and very much strips them of their dignity.

Plus, as I said above, the lowest paid decile or quartile of the popular is now much more mixed-sex than it was 30,40, 50 years ago.

So this is a poverty and equality issue. It’s about people deserving decent pay.

I refuse to patronise myself or my fellow women by framing this as a uniquely female issue (although I quite understand how that analysis grew up a few decades back.)

Why does every. Single. Possible. Action. A woman may take get put under the moral spotlight for the world and his wife to pour over and pontificate about that just simply doesn’t happen to men?

Having a cleaner is an entirely voluntary transaction between both parties. It’s not Saudi Arabia. Cleaner’s and maids are little better than slave labour there. This whole thing is a thing so some woke writer can sell to mostly women a book for £14.99 a pop that can press guilt buttons and make you all feel shit and personally responsible for economic disparities you had no hand in setting up! Meanwhile the said writer in true champagne socialist style can enjoy the sort of lifestyle where employing a cleaner is even an option...

Ironically, I doubt her target audience are cleaners, or any working class/low income women. It's aimed at the middle class, flogging it at 13-14£ while expecting them to self flagellate for outsourcing tasks.

Why does every. Single. Possible. Action. A woman may take get put under the moral spotlight for the world and his wife to pour over and pontificate about that just simply doesn’t happen to men?

Because women are being held responsible for everything from class inequality to male violence. It was ever thus.

Yep. Because it's always women's fault.

I'm struck by the fact that so many of the arguments for why feminists don't need to apply feminist thought to their employment (either singly or as part of a family) of another women echo other choice feminism arguments.

This board is fond of dissing libfems when it comes to gender, but this thread is jam packed with libfem arguments. I don't mind if people are libfem, but some consistency of approach is always nice.

There's a big difference between fault and responsibility.

'Do feminists have a responsibility to apply their feminism as assiduously to the women who work for them as they do to their own lives?' is a different question to 'you're to blame for the conditions many women face in the pink collar industries.'

Libfems do no class analysis.
Any choice a woman makes is empowering and feminist.

Other feminists do class analysis and in the end still make choices that they know to be detrimental to women as a class,
But generally we all do what we need to get on as best we can in the world we are in. None of us are free of societal pressure etc.

In other words. I wear makeup to work. So shoot me

Why is this one, single, solitary form of employment subjected to this nonsensical analysis?

As I said if any of you genuinely are entirely self supporting, off- grid and have entirely opted out of the capitalist system I would have some respect for the hand- wringing going on here- but I doubt that is the case.

And of course if you employ domestic staff you actually have the ability to treat them fairly and decently in a way which you do not have in relation to other employed workers.

The question "is it acceptable to employ a cleaner" is as pointless and stupid as the "question is it acceptable to employ anyone"?

But how is my employing a cleaner to allow me to work in a professional job detrimental to women as a class overall? If I am paying peanuts and disrespecting her then perhaps it is to the individual’s detriment, but overall this surely improves the lot of women as a class in society? Am I missing something ? Unless the answer is that I should instead be sharing the work with my husband 50:50? I suppose that might be superior in class analysis terms...would that be your solution? If not, what would be your solution?

Oh what rubbish, of course people can hire cleaners, a cleaner does a job as many others do, their job frees up another person to do something else. Not all cleaners are women either and there are husband and wife teams of cleaners.

Honestly, I despair.

But how is my employing a cleaner to allow me to work in a professional job detrimental to women as a class overall? If I am paying peanuts and disrespecting her then perhaps it is to the individual’s detriment

It would be detrimental to her as an individual in the same way as it is detrimental to any worker who is over- worked and badly paid.

Absolutely nothing that has said on here makes me believe employing a cleaner is a feminist issue.

If anyone genuinely believes all paid work is exploitative- fair enough. I don't agree but as a logical concept I can understand it, but this idea that a woman employing a cleaner has to be subjected to this feminist analysis is just nonsense.

The whole premise seems to me deeply anti- woman.

In other words. I wear makeup to work. So shoot me

I don't wear makeup to work, it's not a feminist choice. It's an "I can't be arsed choice".

you're to blame for the conditions many women face in the pink collar industries.'

Except that's how most issues are framed . Feminists or just women in general are to blame..for everything.