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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

8 year old boy wants to change with the girls

749 replies

FairytaleofBykerGrove · 06/03/2020 02:45

I’ve been informed that a boy in my daughters class ‘feels like a girl’. He’s been wearing dresses to school for a while (fine) and now wants to change with the girls for swimming. Apparently the children will all accept it no problem and they’d like the parents to do the same. He will be under a poncho towel so we don’t have to worry about his privacy(?) I am really very unhappy with this. Which is why I’m up at 3 in the morning. The other parents I’ve spoken to don’t seem to care either way. I can’t understand it at all. Do you have any advice for me?

OP posts:
PaleBlueMoonlight · 06/03/2020 15:16

R0wantrees That is why I am not convinced that the eradication of gender in its entirety is actually that helpful, because I think aspects of it perform lots of useful social functions, including helping children understand who is who. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't seek to identify and eradicate harmful aspects of gender or that we should in any way not welcome gender non-conformity.

As for the idea of it being hateful to reveal someone's transgender status, I was saying on another thread earlier that the idea that there is a human right to hide your birth sex (as suggested in Goodwin and the provisions GRA is not only flawed in its application, but seems to be rooted in the idea that being transsexual/transgender is somehow shameful and that the way to stop discrimination is to prevent wider society from acknowledging/knowing that they are transsexual/transgender.

HarrietThePi · 06/03/2020 15:17

Obviously I'd speak up on her behalf if the need arose but what about girls who don't have parents that would do that, or the situations where parents are not informed of what's happening.

Lordfrontpaw · 06/03/2020 15:18

So will the girls be forced to change with a child the know as ‘Bill’? They will be told that they are bad/naughty/horrid for feeling uncomfortable or scared?

What are these adults doing to those poor girls? And if a heaven forbid - the boy touches one of the girls (it’s happens) especially when he gets older then what?

BickerinBrattle · 06/03/2020 15:32

Why are we teaching children that feelings alter material reality?

MrsDrudge · 06/03/2020 15:33

If it’s a swimming pool changing room, isn’t there a cubicle he can use?
His preference shouldn’t over ride the girls right to privacy

R0wantrees · 06/03/2020 15:37

That is why I am not convinced that the eradication of gender in its entirety is actually that helpful, because I think aspects of it perform lots of useful social functions, including helping children understand who is who.

Humans can recognise sex from a very early age.
We dont need gendered hairstyles & clothes to help us function. It is far more limiting than helpful.
Dr Katie Alcock (again)

(extract)
So, how do we tell whether someone is male or female? Well, we are very good at it and — like a lot of human cognitive skills — we base it on a number of cues (pieces of information). In fact, we’re very good at it from the time we are tiny babies.
One of the best ways to tell a male body from a female body is gait — how you walk. You don’t need a whole body in front of you, or even the outline of a body, to tell male from female bodies. A nice little point light display will do the trick. Adults and babies aged 4 months or older can tell male from female in this type of video (first image shows a still, second is a video like the ones used in this type of experiment). (continues)

Next up, we can tell the difference between male and female faces. Just as with gait, both infants and adults can do this.
For babies, we usually work out what they can distinguish by finding out what they prefer to look at and what they prefer to look at when we’ve bored them into submission which is technically known as “habituation”. If a baby sees something that looks the same to them, after a while, they will stop looking (I imagine them saying “OK, stop now, I’ve seen that, show me something NEW and EXCITING). This means if we switch in a new picture or sound and they now pay attention, we usually decide they can tell the difference between the old (BORED NOW MUMMY) picture or sound and the new (WOW THAT’S EXCITING) picture or sound. But babies also like to look at some things more than others. Babies who spend more time with Mum or a female caregiver can tell the difference between male and female, and prefer female. But babies who spend more time with Dad or a male caregiver can also tell the difference, but prefer male.
For adults, there seems to be a “prototypical male” and “prototypical female” face and we seem to use a variety of features to distinguish: feature size and shape but also the distance and configuration of facial features." (continues)

medium.com/@katieja/but-how-can-you-tell-7901324d0919

MadamePewter · 06/03/2020 16:04

Actually, I think @dementedma sums it up 😃

CharlieParley · 06/03/2020 16:08

The school has failed the girls in their first duty to them - to do what is in the best interest of all the children in their charge.

One may argue that it could be in the best interest of this boy to be put amongst the girls (as affirmation and validation of his feelings and most likely also in order to avoid being teased or bullied by the other members of his own sex).

But I would like to see even an attempt at an explanation as to how the proposed solution to this boy's problem is in the best interest of the girls.

What is recognised as being in the best interest of girls is to learn that they are allowed to assert boundaries around their own bodies against all members of the opposite sex.

And that this right is respected by the school, and not to be negotiated or coerced away for the sole benefit of select members of the opposite sex. Regardless of the intentions of the male in question.

And that no school ever puts girls into the position where they are forced to disagree with teachers who tell them they should accept a violation of their rights for the benefit of a male in order to be kind.

This isn't about accepting him into a girls' playground game.

They are asked to strip naked in front of a boy, who gets to maintain his privacy, and told this is out of kindness to him.

The school's communication of the necessity of extending a kindness to this boy without any thought given to extending the same kindness to the girls, may become a pivotal factor in their understanding of their position in society.

If the school had set out to teach all of the children in this class who matters and who doesn't, they couldn't have done a better job.

It's difficult even for confident older girls to single themselves out by disagreeing with something a teacher tells them they should do to be kind to another pupil. Even more difficult for eight year olds. So creating a situation where a girl has to declare herself to be unkind in order to assert her right to privacy, is in my view, an abusive, harmful practice and a complete dereliction of duty on the part of the school.

For a girl who has been sexually abused, this all but impossible, because the stakes are even higher for her. If she discloses the abuse so that she can escape this situation without being seen as unkind, she may suffer consequences too frightening to contemplate, especially if the abuse is ongoing.

If she has never learned that she has a right to assert boundaries around her own body, this practice will have a far more lasting impact on her than any school lessons about boundaries.

That the damage done to girls by practices like this has never even been considered before they were adopted in our schools, is quite clear from the way this has been framed. And utterly utterly depressing.

SarahTancredi · 06/03/2020 16:09

And if a heaven forbid - the boy touches one of the girls (it’s happens) especially when he gets older then what?

They will further abuse the victim by forcing them to retell whT happens using "correct pronouns" and record it as having being done by a girl so the evidence for sex segregation is non existent as girls now assult girls so we dont need to safeguarding anymore

PaleBlueMoonlight · 06/03/2020 16:24

R0wantrees That is interesting, but we also know that young children do sort into women and men based on how they are dressed and hairstyles. I accept that stripped of all other information young children might well be able to tell, but where that other information is available they base their judgments on that and will be surprised when they are wrong. Adults on the other hand will likely make an immediate judgment based on hair and dress, but will change that initial judgment as more information becomes available. Anyway, I definitely know less about it than you, so I will leave it there (plus don't want to derail further). However, I do think that we need to be cautious about simply seeking to throw out gender in its entirety. Law of unintended consequences and all that.

R0wantrees · 06/03/2020 16:36

I think the difference is capacity to recognise differences (which we know are sex-based) as opposed to capacity to understand sex categories IYSWIM.
I did consider the same possible contraditions as you between the two papers before I posted.
I've heard Katie Alcock speak, she would be a good person to ask!

RedToothBrush · 06/03/2020 16:46

It bothers me a hell of a lot that this actively teaches boys that girls privacy and dignity doesn't matter and girls are second to them.

I would hope that parents of boys would also be questioning this and why the hell it was going on, rather than all the onus being on girls and their parents.

Boys should be being taught it is ok to be a feminine boy. Otherwise they are being taught that boys must be tough, show no emotion etc etc. These gendered stereotypes are not good for either sex.

Toxic masculinity should not be taught as how boys should be or behave.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 06/03/2020 17:00

Charlie StarStarStar
The school's communication of the necessity of extending a kindness to this boy without any thought given to extending the same kindness to the girls, may become a pivotal factor in their understanding of their position in society.

TellerTuesday4EVA · 06/03/2020 17:01

No I'm sorry but fuck this.... this is all getting ridiculous now. I let a lot of school things go for fear of being 'that' parent but if this happens at DD's primary school I will be the one to put my foot down

Thelnebriati · 06/03/2020 17:02

Whereas if the school had safeguarding in place you wouldn't have to.

R0wantrees · 06/03/2020 17:22

I would hope that parents of boys would also be questioning this and why the hell it was going on, rather than all the onus being on girls and their parents.

Boys should be being taught it is ok to be a feminine boy. Otherwise they are being taught that boys must be tough, show no emotion etc etc. These gendered stereotypes are not good for either sex.

Absolutely
The more relevent issue is how best to ensure this young boy can be respected & supported to be feminine and not face judgement or rejection from his male peers.

There may well be no issue however if there is that is the key point at which teachers should be intervening.

These are eight year olds for goodness sake.
The adults really do need to get a grip.

TheHairyBodParents · 06/03/2020 17:47

Thank you for the kind words, and my apologies for any demons summoned Languishingfemale, Zeugma, Blackbear19. I think a lot of people forget or don't realise that children have always been very aware of Shock whispers puberty... and they are much more informed these days. Differences will stand out more, not less, than they did in my day.

Durgasarrow - you raise an interesting point, in primary 1 I was "assigned" by my teacher to help a (male) student with reading and writing. By primary 3, in a different school 150 miles away, I was supervising the handwriting and reading comprehension of 2 boys in the year below me. Starts early, doesn't it?

Zeugma · 06/03/2020 18:00

Thank you @TheHairyBodParents - I can look back now with sadness for the anxious, unhappy child I was, from a position of being a (reasonably) successful and well-adjusted adult human female.

But just to add, I spent a lot of my life being ‘kind’, ie giving way to other people in order to please them. And guess what? I was walked all over by others. So there came a point when I decided that I would only ‘be kind’ when it worked for me and I thought the circumstances justified it.

The circumstances the OP outlines definitely don’t.

Durgasarrow · 06/03/2020 21:20

I almost feel as if the letter should be approached with utter, open incredulity---"Surely, this can't be right." There are just so many completely illogical aspects to this "solution." Boy is THINKING about being girl, but is still boy. So he doesn't belong in a girl's room. But if he DOES think he is a girl, then why does he need a poncho? And if he does need a poncho, then surely every girl needs a poncho because if he is a girl, and girls need ponchos, then they all need ponchos. If he isn't a girl, he has no business staring at girl's bodies while they're naked, whether they say so or not. It's not okay for a school to force girls to be naked in front of boys. That is sexual abuse! As a parent, you have the right to say NO!!

Melroses · 06/03/2020 21:38

Boys should be being taught it is ok to be a feminine boy. Otherwise they are being taught that boys must be tough, show no emotion etc etc. These gendered stereotypes are not good for either sex

twitter.com/JustDavidDavid/status/1235855443160776708 I was reading this thread earlier on Twitter.

It must be quite frightening for more sensitive boys to see one of their contemporaries 'becoming a little girl' after performing masculinity wrongly (whilst others, like my naughty friend Kevin, are jealously cheering from the sidelines and working out how to achieve this himselfHmm)

StealthPolarBear · 06/03/2020 21:46

Regardless of the trans issues this is infuriating

He doesn't want to change with the boys, but it's OK for the girls to?
His privacy will be protected... Well PHEW. The girls - oh they don't need privacy. And they must at all times #befuckingkind

RedToothBrush · 06/03/2020 21:47

It's the thing that's missing from all these conversations about gender.

I recognise it from my own family.

My parents were concerned that my brother 'didn't have a male role model around' when my Dad worked away for two years during the week. In the end that why he gave up the job. No comment was ever made about how I was missing out on my Dad not being around.

And they tried to get him into sport loads. They tried every sport they could think of 'to toughen him up'.

It's all these little things which were sexist. They didn't mind me being a tomboy. That was acceptable. But my mother commented endlessly about how we were 'born the wrong way round'.

It's always sexist and homophobic in nature. It comes from the adults, with the kids repeating what the parents say.

The conversation is about not just how girls must 'be kind' but also about how boys 'must be tough'.

pleasecalmdown · 06/03/2020 21:50

Whether or not the girls mind at this age is beside the point . The message that's been given here is that they should allow the opposite sex into their spaces and be kind about it .

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 06/03/2020 22:24

The conversation is about not just how girls must 'be kind' but also about how boys 'must be tough'.

Yes, and I have no doubt that there will be some little boys watching quietly thinking that they better try harder to look tough in case their parents decide that this is the path for them too if they fail to do so convincingly enough.

And that's before they realize that the final stage of the "becoming a girl" path involves castration.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 06/03/2020 22:27

Yes, and I have no doubt that there will be some little boys watching quietly thinking that they better try harder to look tough in case their parents decide that this is the path for them too if they fail to do so convincingly enough

Ph god dont kittens

Horrendous thought

Ds1 did say to me that he was relieved that he wasn’t in school now as he probably would have thought he was a girl

He is such a wonderful man...