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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

8 year old boy wants to change with the girls

749 replies

FairytaleofBykerGrove · 06/03/2020 02:45

I’ve been informed that a boy in my daughters class ‘feels like a girl’. He’s been wearing dresses to school for a while (fine) and now wants to change with the girls for swimming. Apparently the children will all accept it no problem and they’d like the parents to do the same. He will be under a poncho towel so we don’t have to worry about his privacy(?) I am really very unhappy with this. Which is why I’m up at 3 in the morning. The other parents I’ve spoken to don’t seem to care either way. I can’t understand it at all. Do you have any advice for me?

OP posts:
TimeLady · 06/03/2020 12:08

Looking ahead, do they still have overnight school trips in year 6/top end primary? Will this male child be expecting to share showers and dormitories with the female pupils too? Because I think he will.

Lordfrontpaw · 06/03/2020 12:14

Yes, they do - DS also went on some external activity trips, so what would they do with sleeping arrangements?

Melroses · 06/03/2020 12:17

So he gets to hide under a towel so he can hide his penis, yet be able to see the girls getting undressed. It doesn't matter if they are 8

This^

It is putting the girls at a disadvantage with respect to a boy and getting them used to having no privacy in front of a boy. It doesn't matter if it a harmless boy - it is getting them used to it which will be to the benefit of the less harmless and predators of the future.

Girls need to understand that not all boys are nice and that they need to be aware of this to protect themselves. It is usually too late once they have proved themselves not to be nice (and no one will believe them anyway).

When mine were at primary school they changed together until y6 where our school was unusual in having separate changing rooms available which were put in when the school was built.

Around the time they left, other schools had to build separate changing rooms for use from Y5 upwards for privacy of both sexes, as children are reaching puberty earlier these days. This hasn't been in place all that long, and yet groups are clamouring to break this down already.

nicky7654 · 06/03/2020 12:20

Basically I wouldn't allow it and I would insist on a meeting with the Head Master or Higher if your not listened to. He is a boy at the end of the day its that simple.

Michelleoftheresistance · 06/03/2020 12:24

If what makes him happy is the removal of rights, dignity and privacy of all female children, then he's going to have to learn other ways to be happy.

Seriously. 'Girls you must have separate changing from the boys at all times for privacy, dignity, safeguarding, you're growing now and your bodies are changing and it's the law. Unless this makes a male sad.'

Where's the impact assessment? Who's training have they had on this, because it will have been wholly and disproportionately biased towards one group of children with encouragement to disregard the rights and needs of other groups. What training with the equal bias on behalf of understanding girls/women have been sought? Because you'd have to have your head in a bucket at this point to realise that female rights is a contentious issue in all this, with validity.

The two sides are:

a) the boy gets everything he wants and is happy, the girls lose everything, their feelings don't matter, they must service the male involved.

b) a third way is found that equally respects everyone's feelings and needs.

One of these solutions is sane.

notasportymum · 06/03/2020 12:28

this is unacceptable. under 8 fine, over 8 (year 3) even our old useless local primary separated the boys and girls for changing, the local pool changing room allowed children in either until age 8. This tied in precisely with my DC own feelings of discomfort in mixed changing.

The adults in loco parentis are essentially instructing females that they have no agency as a group compared to the wants of one male. Completely inappropriate and harmful message to send to young girls about boundaries, and a safeguarding matter. If it wasn't an issue the school wouldn't separate the two sexes at all.

NearlyGranny · 06/03/2020 12:31

Nup. No. Never. He's no threat in himself but the girls' privacy and emotional well-being is threatened. Some girls will tie themselves in knots or bring ponchos of their own instead of being relaxed and happy.

They've already been primed to put this one child's feelings ahead of all their own and that's not fair or healthy. Why teach them their feelings aren't important and their privacy doesn't count?

Why not let the child change in the disabled loo if he doesn't want to change with the boys? Is he being bullied or ostracised by the boys? Why isn't it their job to be kind, too?

AParallelUniverse · 06/03/2020 12:39

it is getting them used to it which will be to the benefit of the less harmless and predators of the future.

Absolutely. And a large percentage of these woke right on teachers and parents don't even see what they're doing. More important to be nice. To the long term detriment of girls. It's not the boys fault. But really how many boys would think they should be getting changed with the girls, if the adults hadn't already put the idea in his head?? He needs support from sensible adults. But this is not a problem for the girls to have to deal with.

LangSpartacusCleg · 06/03/2020 12:43

Here is something for those saying ‘the kids are ok with it’.

I am a teacher.

In a class of 16 year olds, I could influence them in such a way that 95% will agree with me on almost any issue. I admire the 5% of free thinkers.

In a class of 8 year olds, I could probably get 100% agreement.

Would my tactics be manipulative? Yes.
Unethical? Hell, yes.
Effective? Absofuckinglutely.

Teachers can influence children in dramatic ways whilst still being very subtle about it. It is essentially grooming.

Do not trust 8 year olds not to be influenced by others.

The primary safeguarding and teaching responsibility lies with the parents. Teach your children the boundaries that you want them to have or teach them the critical thinking skills to set their own boundaries.

An 8 year old is still learning critical thinking skills so this is the time to step in and set the boundaries for her.

fascinated · 06/03/2020 13:32

I just knew #bekind would be subverted in this way.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 06/03/2020 13:34

I just wonder how the conversation with the principle and the parents went.
So you know Timmy has been wearing a skirt for a while now and he plays with all the girls.
Well Timmy would like to get changed with the girls when they go swimming.
Principle:oh yes wonderful idea.

Surely at some point during discussions it must have come up that some girls will feel uncomfortable.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 06/03/2020 13:36

Sorry about the smily face, phone is acting up

Lordfrontpaw · 06/03/2020 13:39

Why cant a boy who wants to wear a skirt - if he really must wear it to school (so can other kids wear a spaceman outfit if they really really want?) so then fine - make sure the other boys are cool with it. Yes, he will be teased and picked on - that's life and we can't pretend that he is special or extraordinary.

He is at school to learn and the other kids aren't there as part of his games.

Purpleartichoke · 06/03/2020 13:50

My dd would have absolutely refused to change near a bit at 8. She has ASD and getting her to change just with other girls present is near impossible. I would have to go to the school and demand my daughter not have to change in this situation because her privacy needs to be respected.

Durgasarrow · 06/03/2020 13:50

The idea that well-behaved girls have been used to manage problem boys since the dawn of time is genius, and true. I remember reading about how smart girls have been used to tutor unruly boys instead of being encouraged to master more advnced skills; girls being expected to be compassionate pals of ill-behaved special needs students who sometimes exhibited scary behaviors, etc. etc. Girls have been put in situations over their heads, expected to be nice and to cope emotionally with the problems adults didn't want to hendle. Girls are expected to make up the difference and to sacrifice themselves for others' comfort. Sometimes it is up to adults to say, "No, the girls will have the first-class treatment they deserve."

Lordfrontpaw · 06/03/2020 14:12

I'm wondering about the girls who say, have autism.

Now, they may very well take exception to a boy being in the girls' room - and possibly even being described as a girl.

Will they be punished for asking/stating the obvious (as the man was recently regarding the f2m police officer)? The emperor has no clothes.

loutypips · 06/03/2020 14:27

At 8, some of the girls will be developing breasts, maybe wearing bras and even starting their periods. It's a crucial time for young girls as their bodies are changing.

There's no way they should be made to put up with a male (even one who considers themselves female) in their private space. It's sending the message to these girls, that males, always are more powerful than them.

I bet, that most of the girls will say they don't mind, because they have been told not to mind. Again this reinforces the views of the male outweighs them.

I would also argue that this could be damaging to the boy, as he will soon realise that his body isn't developing the way that the other girls are. This could also lead him to taking more notice of the girls bodies, which will be un-nerving for them.

SisterWendyBuckett · 06/03/2020 14:31

Fairy - we all know this is not acceptable.

Anyone who has anything to do with safeguarding knows this is not acceptable and that it's not about the individual boy or whether the girls in his class agree.

I know you'll write an excellent letter and I would be very surprised if the school insist on instigating this once you've made all your points.

But if they do, this must be escalated.

SarahTancredi · 06/03/2020 14:39

Will they be punished for asking/stating the obvious (as the man was recently regarding the f2m police officer)? The emperor has no clothes

According to the secret CPS guidence issued to schools this "outing " or " rejection" is a hate crime so...

Lordfrontpaw · 06/03/2020 14:47

Look - the kid is known and is getting changed, so their little secret is already out...

R0wantrees · 06/03/2020 14:48

Aside from the clear Safeguarding issues.

The school & parents who support this are teaching that boy/girl's men/women's changing spaces are determined by who 'chooses' to wear a swimming costume rather than trunks. Except of course the majority of children are wearing sex specific swim wear.

Dr Katie Alcock (Psychology lecturer Lancaster University) explains well-established child development stages by which young children come to understand sex classification. This is initially based on superficial characteristics eg hair & clothing.

(extract)
"This is a rough summary of a talk I gave on April 27th in Lancaster as part of an event I and other members of For Women Lancashire organised entitled Gender Identity: Safeguarding Children and Young People. (continues)

Now these days we are all anti-stereotyping and we are convinced we have not raised our children to know what sex stereotypes are. If the only influences on children were things people said directly to them, and especially things we as parents said directly to them, this might work out. But children don’t grow up in a vacuum — they see the other children at nursery, they see toys that other children play with, obviously they hear what other adults than their parents say but most of what children take in is not from people talking to them, but from what they see.

Making generalisations is a very useful skill for a baby or child — if they couldn’t make generalisations, they would never be able to work out that a new cat they saw was in fact a cat, or a new apple was just as good to eat as the last one, or a new car is likely also to go places. Children can work out at a very young age that there are men and women, boys and girls, in the world — it’s probably quite useful for them to work this out in the general scheme of things.

So when they see all the girls at nursery wearing pink and having long hair, well, that’s what girls do! And they also realise, from what people are saying, and from how their parents dress them, what toys they are given, and what toys other children who look like them (same clothes, same hair) what they are supposed to like and do based on what sex they are.

If you’re interested in reading more about how insidious gender stereotypes are in children’s worlds, you could do much worse than read pretty much the whole website at Let Toys Be Toys.
So, based on the idea that girls have long hair and boys have short hair, James is also age-perfect in thinking that when appearance changes, sex changes too. Until the age of about 7 (yes, 7 — in some children it’s older) children think that when something changes its appearance, its underlying reality changes too. This doesn’t just apply to sex, it applies to pretty much everything."

www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLd6suGdLIPWWnUIXHJYllSnnpWB7oeONx&time_continue=62&v=_BFDgO_y9cc&feature=emb_logo

But at the same time — we’re talking 4, 5, 6 and even 7 — children do NOT understand that people’s genitals (and biology in general, but genitals are more obvious to small children) are what makes them boys or girls, men or women. Researchers think that earlier knowledge about biological differences between men and women does help children to understand at a younger age that people cannot change sex.

But it isn’t a complete answer — some children can understand that men have penises and women have vaginas, but still think that changing clothing makes a girl into a boy, if they also think that a cat wearing a dog mask has become a dog. In other words, to get to a mature understanding of sex constancy you need to understand what makes a boy and a girl, biologically, and also understand that the underlying essence of a thing isn’t dependent on its appearance.

Now we come to the present day and the transgender agenda. Parents are, by and large, reasonably happy for their children to do things that are outside the range of what’s generally in the “allowed” stereotypes for their sex. That is to say, mums are happy whatever their children do and dads are happy for their girls to do “boy” things. Dads are much less happy for their boys to do “girl” things or wear “girl” clothes. This is 100% no doubt linked to the devaluing of things to do with women — lower pay, lesser status, “run like a girl” is an insult, “man up” a positive suggestion.

But of course children have their own preferences and influences and they like doing what they like doing even if that happens to be something their parents think isn’t “right” for their sex. It’s called personality. So, even when children realise that boys are “supposed” to like cars and wear jeans and have short hair, they may not actually want to do that if they are a boy.

So we now have children like “Lily”, here shown on the Victoria Derbyshire programme. Lily is 6. Six year olds think that if you change your clothes, you change sex. Lily therefore thinks that putting on a dress makes you into a girl. Literally makes you into a girl. Not “means your inner gender essence is a girl”. Literally changes your sex." (continues)

medium.com/@katieja/young-children-reality-sex-and-gender-3421f4f165f1

SarahTancredi · 06/03/2020 15:07

Look - the kid is known and is getting changed, so their little secret is already out

Unfortunately the guidance is pretty much written as if no one could possibly know . That they dont have eyes ...

As well as elevating trans rights above all else. And ensuring that girls know that even of the bloke is 6 ft 6 with a beard and that they could he at any stage if transition and not to challenge and out them Hmm

Lordfrontpaw · 06/03/2020 15:10

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HarrietThePi · 06/03/2020 15:15

My five year old DD is very private about getting dressed and using the bathroom. She has been that way since a very young age actually. I know she would be uncomfortable with this but she does not talk very much, she has additional needs, and so she would be very unlikely to voice this.

dementedma · 06/03/2020 15:16

he's a boy. He gets changed with the boys.

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