Men saying that MWC should include male spouses

[Madvixen]

So the Military Wives Choir movie is out this week and I've just read a blog post from a male spouse stating that MWC should become more inclusive and include male spouses and families.

It's made me rage but now I feel guilty for being angry. He's in a really lonely position (there's very few male spouses) but why does that mean he gets to come into a woman's group?

Ahhhhhhh what do I do? Do I reply to the tweet and say what I think or suck it up?

One of the biggest reasons why the divorce rates for female officers with male spouses is higher is because their spouses get very little support. Ultimately I don’t understand why a choir can only be inclusive for the spouses of men / gay women.

There is a place for male voice choirs. There is a place for female voice choirs. It works for the women. They are happy with the status quo.

I really don't see why they should change because one bloke has had a whinge.

I used to run a women's consciousness raising group at university. We had a steady stream of men wanting to join. Not because they were interested in women's consciousness raising but because they couldn't bear women having spaces without men.

Arf arf

It's been a while since I watched the Gareth Malone show, but I can't remember there being much emphasis on the fact that it was women only. It was all about having something to belong to, a time out etc etc. And as is apparent, men are involved anyway. The only real objection seems to be an artistic one.

To me tis is the point. I don't have an issue with serious choirs picking out the people who they need, including their sex. I also don't have a problem with single sex groups more generally.

But just saying "it's a female choir" doesn't cut it in all cases. It really depends on the reasons the choirs were set up. Was it to support military spouses and be a place for them to meet and interact, and so ended up being female more by default? That seems to be the case, even if since then they've naturally focused on women's voices. If that is the case, it makes sense for the group to really consider what their mission was meant to be and how they can now best fulfil that. If the point was always more about being female only, then that's different. But it seems that there is actually a lack of clarity about that which is often the case. It doesn't mean the question shouldn't be raised though.

There was a time when everything for military spouses was made up of women. It is difficult to imagine that everyone thinks that as male spouses began to appear they should have simply set up their own groups, and would have been wrong to ask to be included. Networks for spouses in the military in my experience are less about sex than other commonalities, and they do need a common social environment to work well, something that's actually less well established these days than it used to be in many military communities.

I also think a lot of women here would be pretty pissed off if the automatic response to any women wanting to join a group that has traditionally been all men was simply, nope make up your own group, rather than some real consideration of the purpose of the group.

Other than it being a female voice choir that specifies it's for female people only, and the female people want it to be female?

I suppose it depends on how/why it was set up. I admit I have always thought MWC was just arbitrarily for women because there probably weren't any male spouses who wanted to join. However if it was set up specifically as a female activity from the outset, then I suppose that changes my thinking on whether men should be invited in.

Is it primarily a supportive community for spouses? Or is it for females with a military connection ?

Goosefoot, you've articulated all my thoughts and questions about this topic much better than I could.

We don't actually know what the women who go along think and whether they'd be bothered to have a man singing with them. Things can happen because it just develops that way, not because of a specific purpose. In this case it might also be because it is more marketable as women only, which could be a consideration when they're doing commercial releases, films etc.

Ah, I see the "why can't you [nasty selfish women] just be kind ?" has been trotted out.

The attempted napalming of anything we want for ourselves never takes long to show up.

Why do you imagine they wrote membership criteria that included daughters, sisters and mothers, phoenix? Also any female personnel?

It seems very deliberate wording. They are at pains to point out pretty much any FEMALE with a link, any link is eligible. The female part is explicit.

Isn't that a pretty strong indication that this is primarily a female choir (and the military connection is secondary) rather than primarily a military choir (with the female connection secondary).
Look at their wording in the criteria.

It's enough that women say "This is what we want". They're entitled to.
The men - INCLUDING ALL the fathers, brothers, sons etc, of which there will be MANY, can do exactly the same thing.

Its a massive female network. A brilliant example of the power of women organising and supporting each other. I can see why some men would be inclined to destroy a network of women for being women-only.

You're being ridiculous now barracker, who is trying to destroy it?

. It really depends on the reasons the choirs were set up. Was it to support military spouses and be a place for them to meet and interact, and so ended up being female more by default? That seems to be the case, even if since then they've naturally focused on women's voices. If that is the case, it makes sense for the group to really consider what their mission was meant to be and how they can now best fulfil that.

I completely agree. From what I remember of seeing a programme at the time, it was set up specifically as a way of providing support for spouses while troops were on deployment.

In my opinion it's up to the military wives - but they shouldn't be coerced into being "nice" - if you need women only space that's absolutely understandable and really not unreasonable.

Male voice choirs are super super well established, and a military version isn't that much of a stretch.

Men can budge up to make room, instead of women having to budge up for men.

Is it primarily a supportive community for spouses? Or is it for females with a military connection ?
The latter. Without any ambiguity.

PLEASE refer to the membership criteria I've posted twice, upthread! It makes this very, very, very clear and explicit.

zebras you called me spiteful? Men often call women who say no to them spiteful, and some women clearly agree with that. Obviously as a feminist, I don't agree. I'm not sure you'll get the response you want on a feminism board, calling me spiteful for supporting the right of other women to say no to each and every man that objects to their female only groups.
I'll leave your comment to stand though. It's illuminating.

He's a grown man. He needs to understand that women don't have to include him in women-only organisations. There are thousands of men associated with the military. He has options.

Meanwhile, here is the lovely story of how two women started the first MWC in 2010 by putting up posters and engaging a local music teacher, and how it has grown into a 2000 strong, 74 choirs female only network open to any and every female with any link to the military, serving or not. Wonderful!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Wives

www.militarywiveschoirs.org/top/about-us/

Interesting MN thread from when it first got going.

Your interpretation of wonderful is clearly different to mine.

I don't consider it wonderful that some isolated individuals would be excluded from a group while others, with the most tenuous of links, would be included based on nothing more than their genitals.

I don't think it's wonderful that people who might be separated from their families because they are supporting their spouses career would be left isolated and that fact would be celebrated by some posters on here.

Why on earth would it be wonderful that an MOD secretary can join the choir but a man whose wife and mother of his children, is risking her life out in Iraq can be excluded?

And yes it is spiteful to just keep on about him being entitled and trying to destroy something and how he should just go and set up his own group. Not everyone is in a place to do that. Not everyone has the confidence, ability, personality, emotional capability to do that. Why do we have any support groups or charities at all if everyone who could benefit should just go and set up their own group?

This was an interesting post from that thread

The lack of husbands might be because they chose to use Chivenor - a barracks which is mainly occupied by the Royal Marines (a part of the military which is all male).

Wonder if that's true?

I dont know how true to life the film is, but it certainly gave the impression that the first choir was set up as a social group type thing to keep the wives occupied while the spouses were away. (They also have coffee mornings, knitting club, a hiking group and pot luck suppers). There aren't any army husbands in it so its hard to know if they weren't in the choir because they didn't exist, didn't want to join or were allowed to join.

Please note this is based purely on the film. I am not from a military family and have no knowledge of army life.

Cheer up zebras.
It isn't our genitals that is the basis of our women only groups, it's our sex. We don't even check each others vaginas, we just recognise each other!

But good news, men have managed to dominate world politics, and world property ownership, and pretty much every avenue of power, so I have every confidence that they can organise a singing group if that is truly what they want, or join one that they already meet the criteria for.

In the meantime, women get to organise and associate with other women if they like and they get to do it without men's approval!

Yay for feminism! By women, for women. Brilliant.

Here's a clip of one of the choirs singing "Thank you for the music"

I love their opening line
"you're nothing special, in fact you're a bit of a bore"

They're singing "thank you for the music"? You mean the ABBA song? The one written by 2 men, you mean? How very entitled. Why didn't they write their own song, rather than rely on the labour of others?

By women, for women

But set up and directed by a man?

Doesnt take long, does it 😂

Now then, zebras, you're sounding bitter.
(And the MWC was set up by two women, not by Gareth. Didn't you read the backstory?)

Don't you think that chorus of female voices sounds lovely?

I loved singing in the choirs. I originally joined as it had a crèche, meaning I didn't have to worry if DH was away, or working late. I could have my 90mins of me time every week, while my children were cared for. Then we moved. I knew nobody. So I went to choir practice. I now knew people. Same thing next time I moved. The music was the same, so you didn't have to worry about learning a complete new set. I'm not currently singing as I don't have time with my children's social lives and I do miss it.

The husband's are a very small minority. Often serving themselves (I know more dual serving couples than trailing husbands). But all say, they prefer to talk in a mens only group- they are welcome at the coffee mornings etc. But they like their own space away from us.

If you are asking whether husbands need support- then the answer is yes. But of the myriad of support groups, the main difference about MWC is that people have heard of it. A tiny percentage of military wives sing in the choirs.

Aroundtheworldin80moves

So if the choir hadn't been there how would you have made friends, found support etc?

And the MWC was set up by two women, not by Gareth. Didn't you read the backstory?)

That's not the backstory presented in the film.