Men saying that MWC should include male spouses

[Madvixen]

So the Military Wives Choir movie is out this week and I've just read a blog post from a male spouse stating that MWC should become more inclusive and include male spouses and families.

It's made me rage but now I feel guilty for being angry. He's in a really lonely position (there's very few male spouses) but why does that mean he gets to come into a woman's group?

Ahhhhhhh what do I do? Do I reply to the tweet and say what I think or suck it up?

Not that this is the point, but you can't have a choir with 4 male voices and 20 female either zebras. You'd need to get completely different musical arrangements and it would still be a far worse experience because the low voices would be desperately under-strength, women pushed into singing tenor to try to bolster them etc. The men could maybe form a barbershop quartet though.

Many activities for military spouses are indeed funded from the public purse (military welfare budget). Including at least some of the choirs.

Then some of that public money should be used to support male spouses too.

thirdfiddle

How do rock choirs manage then? Lots of them have far more women members than male.

As for Barber shop quartets - they'd need to be competent singers wouldn't they? Singers of all standards can join the MWC can't they? Being a good singer isn't a requirement. Maybe this man wouldn't be a good enough singer to be in a quartet but could join in with a big choir.

Under the circumstances it doesn't seem reasonable to exclude men who are trailing spouses and who require the camaraderie of a group like this, particularly when others with far less of a connection are allowed to join and even more so if public money is funding it.

But you are ignoring the point that there might not be enough men to be able to set up a military husband choir. You can hardly have a choir with 4 people in it can you?
No, I'm not, I specifically addressed that upthread. The MWV choir is a much wider membership than just wives. I've posted the membership criteria twice, I won't bother a third time, but you'll find it upthread. A MHC following the same model for males would include all the brothers, sons, fathers, serving military personnel and now I'm repeating myself. It Isn't Just For Partners. Again.

You can definitely have a choir with 4 men in it though. My choir has 3 men in it and one more who comes sporadically. The rest are women. This is what small choirs look like. Not all choirs have hundreds.

I'm sure there are plenty of women who would want to join a mixed choir like this. Leaving the female voice choir intact. Joining both.

Unless you are suggesting that no woman would want to sing in a mixed choir with this man and so they should be forced to by removing their right to continue enjoying their female voice choir? "You'll bloody well sing with this fella, ladies, or you won't sing at all."

You don't need great musical ability to set up a choir. Just a few enthusiastic and willing singers and someone who can act as a leader/musical director and can arrange the various parts for altos, sopranos etc. You pay this person from membership fees if necessary.

Tell me, what's stopping him from approaching the choir leader and saying "How about we set up a mixed choir too? We'll meet on Thursdays instead of Tuesdays when the female choir meets. Mind if I post a flyer up on the notice board inviting anyone who wants to join this mixed one, either instead of or in addition to being in the female choir? What's your hourly rate?"

Why not create something new and exciting, instead of being destructive?

Not that this is the point, but you can't have a choir with 4 male voices and 20 female either zebras.

Pretty much every open ability community style choir (like MWC) I have seen is overwhelmingly female. More men would make for a better mix of sound, but they still get on with it. It really does depend on what you are aiming for - as professional a sound as possible, or something that all abilities want to be able to join in with and serving a social function as much as anything.

Four? You're asking your brass band to admit four violins, find a whole new set of arrangements and become a massively imbalanced community orchestra.

Pretty much exactly the make-up of my choir, 3-4 male voices and 20 women! Not ideal, but it's an absolute joy anyway. We're not perfectly balanced, but we make do because those ratios are doable.

You know what, there's a female only rock choir up the road and I bet it has never occurred to any of the men in our choir to insist they include men. But they're all pretty lovely men who respect women, and that's probably why.

Ok fair enough, not a singer. But if 4 male voices is enough for a mixed voice choir, why not put some ads up and sound out interest for a new venture? Likely get more interest if it's a new venture aimed at both sexes than trying to gatecrash an established female voice choir.

Barracker, I think you're completely overstating how feasible it would be to set up another choir in a military base. As you've pointed out yourself, far more women attend choirs anyway (outside of Wales anyway...) The MWC will probably have already got those who would be interested in going to a choir, and setting up another would probably be looked at as being in competition with them.

If there is a real purpose behind it being women only, then I could appreciate it. But the only two reasons given have been that: it is a female only space and that it wouldn't work musically with the odd man. But the accompanists and conductors can be men, so men are already there. Musically there seems to be very little difference to most community style choirs, who often have very few men.

That wasn't my argument Hear and it wasn't the argument used by many. But don't let the truth get in the way

I've just clocked who some of the pp are on this thread, and realised they are only here on a mission to try and effect a "gotcha" (failing).

It's incredibly tedious sealioning type behaviour and it's best to not engage with them.

You don't need great musical ability to set up a choir. Just a few enthusiastic and willing singers and someone who can act as a leader/musical director and can arrange the various parts for altos, sopranos etc. You pay this person from membership fees if necessary.

Well, this was my point. How do you pay for someone to do this when you are just starting and have no members? If you can do it yourself then you don't need to pay anyone before you've even started.

And you are saying you are in a choir with 4 men and the rest women so it is possible, despite others saying that a few men would completely ruin a choir with their voices.

Long and short of it, if public money is being spent then it should be open to men and women unless there's a justifiable reason to segregate by sex, which there isn't in this case.

You know what, there's a female only rock choir up the road and I bet it has never occurred to any of the men in our choir to insist they include men. But they're all pretty lovely men who respect women, and that's probably why.

Or, it's an entirely different set of circumstances and those men aren't isolated on an army base while their wife is deployed and they are worried that she won't be coming home and are desperate for a bit of community with people in a similar situation?

Why are you going on at some women who have taken the chance to have a women's singing group within the male - heavy military community? Female voice groups are a thing, they exist, they don't have to become mixed just because they have become popular and successful. It's a different sound, a different set of musical arrangements, it's just a different thing. Brass bands exist and badly balanced community orchestras exist, that doesn't mean that one has to suddenly turn into the other just because someone's feeling left out.

So it all boils down to women being kind and giving up the thing they created, again.

I strongly believe in female-only spaces but not every space needs to be a female-only space. I think it makes us as GC women look spiteful if we won't budge over in any context whatsoever. I'm pretty sure these choirs are set up as community supports for spouses rather than to showcase incredible female voices? There's no actual reason this choir needs to be female only, apart from the fact that there probably aren't many men about who are eligible/want to join.

And I think it's been pointed out already, but the MWC is not a female only space. Gareth Malone is the conductor.

What on earth makes you think there is no other community for the husbands, partners, sons, brothers, fathers and retired personnel etc, other than the female voice choir, I mean?

Do you think the female voice choir is literally the ONLY social activity on the base?!!

I'll say it one last time.
Men can form a new choir in addition to the existing one. It's easy to do, even if you assume the levels of utter incompetence of men that many posters apparently do.
I happen to think men are capable of putting up flyers and gathering in a front room for a singalong whilst they gauge interest in a mixed voice choir. Or a male one.

But I agree with the sealioning comment.

And if women don't want to sing with you, your mummy and daddy probably should have taught you as a boy that you can't make them.

Spiteful? So again, women should be kind.

It might be a male heavy military but that's the problem isn't it? The spouses are majority female so male spouses are being isolated.

These choirs aren't brass bands or even equivalent to civilian choirs. They were started with a purpose of supporting military wives so why can't that be extended to.military husbands, particularly in the absence of any other opportunities for them to form communities and friendships.

I don't see why it is so terrible to extend kindness particularly in specific circumstances like this where you'd think that members of that community would be looking to pull together and support each other. Why has kindness become such a dirty word?

What on earth makes you think there is no other community for the husbands, partners, sons, brothers, fathers and retired personnel etc, other than the female voice choir, I mean?

Do you think the female voice choir is literally the ONLY social activity on the base?!!

Because people on this thread, with direct experience, have said as much.

They have only been active since 2011 are you saying men havent had anything to do since 2011?

I bet not one of the posters going, oh, but the poor man has NOTHING else he could possibly do other than bother the female voice choir, have EVER thought for one millisecond of attacking male voice choirs and telling them they're exclusionary and mean to women.

I actually get very huffy about male voice choirs! Actually, I think there is absolutely a place for female and male only voice choirs. I just don't think it is the main purpose of this particular choir, which is really more equivalent to an all-abilities community choir.

There's no actual reason this choir needs to be female only
Other than it being a female voice choir that specifies it's for female people only, and the female people want it to be female?

Do you think women need to justify their female voice choirs to men?
Do men have to justify their male voice choirs to women?

Is there some rule that says if you're a really talented female voice choir you can exclude men, but if you're a bit amateurish you can't?
Who gets to judge when you achieve the level of performance that allows you permission to be female only, and are you allowed to say no to men from that point on?

Wow. Some people REALLY have a problem with women just saying no to men.

This is making me think of those American Dances for kids where they are told they are forbidden from refusing to dance with anyone who asks. Girls groomed that saying no and having boundaries is mean and hurty. Say yes to any man who asks you, be kind.

Barracker

Why do you delight in making such gleefully spiteful comments?

Do you know the man in question? You literally have no idea about him, his views or anything else so why do you seek to make such belittling comments?

How many women belong to a MWC? How many of those have set up their own choir?
Do you say the same to them - that they should go and set up their own choirs, that mummy and daddy should have told them the same?

It doesn't have to be a female - only space for the female aspect to benefit women. Look at girls' schools for example. Most have some male teachers.
Specially if males are in short supply, it's easy for things to become centred on them. For example altos ending up singing tenor to try to prop up the men, when they might well be happier singing alto in female only arrangements. Lots of rehearsal time spent trying to help the men with their part because they don't have enough numbers or strong singers. Fine if you are and want to be a mixed choir. Women are allowed to want something that's not about the men for a change.

Off the top of head, the social clubs available on one posting...
Swim club- mixed
Cross country- mixed
Parkrun - mixed
Cinema- mixed
Biker club- mixed
Coffee mornings- mixed
Officers spouses- mixed
Sergeants spouses- mixed
All ranks club- mixed
Cycling club- mixed
Spouses PT- mixed
Antenatal- women only!
Boxing- men and women seperate
Martial arts- mixed
Husbands club- men only
Spinning- mixed
Playgroups- kids were accompanied by either parent or childminder
MWC- women.

The sports clubs had more men then women.