Men saying that MWC should include male spouses

[Madvixen]

So the Military Wives Choir movie is out this week and I've just read a blog post from a male spouse stating that MWC should become more inclusive and include male spouses and families.

It's made me rage but now I feel guilty for being angry. He's in a really lonely position (there's very few male spouses) but why does that mean he gets to come into a woman's group?

Ahhhhhhh what do I do? Do I reply to the tweet and say what I think or suck it up?

Obviously there are male only choirs, but unless there are both male and female military choirs, it’s not really comparable.

If only there was a way of creating a male military choir so there would be both. 🙄

Last base we lived on there were 3 choirs.

• MWC
• Combined Schools (plus the individual schools)
• Fijian.

All had entry criteria. In addition, there were local choirs, like the Anglo-German (we were living in Germany).

Kinda completely missed my post then, Anonymouse99?
Yep. Cross-post. I confess I only skim-read the article. If there are existing male choirs and this person is just trying to join the female choir to make a point, I take back everything I said.

Perhaps there is an existing male choir, that some slightly more proactive chap already created.
Perhaps there isn't.
The day before the MWC was formed, there wasn't an existing female choir.
The day after it was formed there was.

The point is, if you want it, and it doesn't exist, you create it. Like the women did. The women created a female voice choir because they wanted it.

Now here is a man who wants to be part of a mixed voice choir.
If that doesn't already exist, let him create one! I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if some women chose to be in both. I would.

What has this chap done to create more options, instead of spoiling the options already available for others?

I haven't seen his blog, but is he mistaking these women for his mummy, perhaps, and hoping they'll sort his problem out for him?

Seriously if the guy wants to sing, the local SATB choir will bite his hand off. Men are in very short supply in choral singing.

So I'm guessing it's not so much that he wants to sing, more that he wants to make a women's choir accept him. The fact that this will totally change the choir, how they sound and possibly what they sing doesn't come into play for him.

Well colour me surprised.

It's a bit like that bloke with breast cancer whining about not being able to join a woman only breast cancer support group. It was pointed out that there are groups for male survivors of breast cancer but he didn't want to join those, he wanted to join the women's one.

Honestly, I don't have much of a problem with this. Groups for military spouses have tended to be women because most people in the military used to be men.

I don't see it as much different than when there were few women in some hobby groups and such, and they argued that they should be allowed to join so they could participate in these activities where there were few women. Men also felt that this was impinging on their male social time.

I don't have a problem in principle with male or female only social groups but it is worth considering what is made single sex. If there are only enough people for one choir, it might be best to make it mixed sex.

Though I suspect there may not be that many female baritones or tenors (unless they're tans)

I'm a female tenor and most definitely not trans. However, I'm only a female tenor because we are SO short of male tenors. If the gentleman in question would like to join our MIXED choir and leave the FEMALE choir alone we would welcome him with open arms and huge enthusiasm and I could move back to the altos where I belong.

Those of you who are arguing he has a point don't understand how arranging music for voice works.

I disagree. A choir of this type typically takes anyone who wants to join, and even when it is single sex, that can include people with limited singing ability. In a mixed choir it often still means a lot more women than men who don't seem as keen on choir singing.

Part of the job of a choir like that is to make it work. And it won't always work as you might like. Which is why it's not the same as an auditioned choir.

A choir of this type typically takes anyone who wants to join

As per the joining criteria mentioned upthread, it takes any WOMAN that wants to join.

Seriously if the guy wants to sing, the local SATB choir will bite his hand off. Men are in very short supply in choral singing.

This.

There'll be choirs around him desperate for extra men. Our mixed choir is short of men. He would have no difficulty finding a place in a mixed choir, if what he actually wanted to was to sing in a mixed choir.

Either he's the only military bloke in the area who wants to sing, in which case he'll be snapped up by a local mixed choir and has absolutely no need to pressure the existing female voice choir to become mixed with his single male baritone or tenor voice wrecking both the sound, and the female-only organisation.
Or there's a genuine unmet demand from all the brothers, fathers, sons who are sad that women have successfully organised a female voice choir. In which case those fellas can form either a male only, or a mixed choir.

Either way, he has options, and they need not include bothering explicitly female voice choirs.

For those that missed it:

Membership Criteria
Membership shall be open to any female who has an interest in assisting the choir achieve its aims, will honour the choir’s code of conduct and meets at least one of the following criteria:

1Wife, fiancée or co-habiting partner of serving British armed forces personnel
2.Serving or retired British military personnel
3.Immediate family of serving British armed forces personnel i.e. mother, sister or daughter
4.Wife, fiancée or co-habiting partner of veteran British armed forces personnel
5.Wife, fiancée or co-habiting partner of serving non-British armed forces personnel on UK postings
6.Civilian employees employed within the military community who provide a direct service to aid the welfare of serving military personnel and their families.

It's specifically a female-only endeavour. Sons, fathers and male spouses are all excluded because they are male. Not because nobody thought they existed. Pretty sure people know that there are as many sons as there are daughters, and as many brothers as there are sisters. But the fellas are excluded. Because this choir is for female voices. A female-only group.

It's as valid as any one of the many, many adult male voice choirs that exist up and down the country. Which, astonishingly, no self-respecting woman is lobbying to be included within.

And again, you don't understand how arranging music for voices works @Goosefoot

Ooo I'm eligible to join! Because I'm a woman with connection to the military!

PS I can't wait to see the film. I love the Gareth Malone programmes and longed for him to come to somewhere I worked and start one.

Actually, Goosefoot, it was an auditioned choir. Perhaps you haven't seen any of the Gareth Malone programmes (I think you're not in the UK)?

@ScapaFlo the film is the story of the original choir, which predates GM (and was the inspiration for the TV programme) and it was, and still is, open to everyone. Mist if the MWC is open non audition. I've sang in three and never auditioned, even ran one at one point.b

The MWC is much more than just a choir though isn't it? Presumably it's the camaraderie of being with other people who understand the challenges of having a serving spouse, so why shouldn't similar support be available to men too? Telling him to just join any other choir isn't addressing the benefit of being with other military spouses. How can he set up a male equivalent if there aren't other men around to do it?

Does the military not have any support groups for male spouses of deployed personnel?

Ah thanks Around. I hadn't heard of it before Gareth Malone. Apologies. I wasn't aware of a choir in any of the bases I served (I'm a veteran) but at that time there was very little interaction between the 'wives of' and the servicewomen. I hope there is more now.

I think the guy has a point and cannot see why the choir should be restricted to wives. They would have to change their name from 'Military Wives' of course; 'Military Wives and Husbands'. sounds better than 'Military Spouses'. There would still be more women than men but if some husbands have decent voices, the choir would be enhanced.

I think it's not so much that he wants to sing, but that he wants to belong.

Being a trailing spouse is hard.

The welfare provision can be variable. People can become very lonely and very isolated, even if they live on a patch. If there is a lengthy deployment and the default setting for families provision is women only, it gets very tough, and the list of 'what's on' is IME disproportionately women only.

He would be wrong to want to join a group that was serious about women's choral signing. But the typical MWC is not that, it's a social group. There is no reason why it could not be as inclusive as any rick choir

It's a choir for female voices, for a start. Whilst I sympathise with his position I'm sure there are other ways in which he can associate with army spouses. The choir can't be the only way in which they socialise.

How can he set up a male equivalent if there aren't other men around to do it?

With all the sons, brothers, fathers, male serving or retired British military personnel, and male civilian employees employed within the military community who provide a direct service to aid the welfare of serving military personnel and their families?

In essence all the male equivalents of the female criteria laid out for the WMC, which includes FAR more than just partners of serving military (see criteria posted upthread).

There's either reams of fellas feeling sad, in which case plenty of blokes to start their own choir, or he's the only one, in which case there's no case at all to dissolve a female voice choir when there's a ton of choirs desperate for men to sing with them.

As for camaraderie - are all these sons, brothers, fathers, male military personnel all utterly incapable of organising a get together themselves? Must the women sort them out, or accommodate them?

Is a female voice choir literally the only social activity that this man fancies inserting himself into; nothing else exists for him to join?

Some men are most upset when women say no to them, even with a myriad of other options available to them. It's quite odd.

cannot see why the choir should be restricted to wives

It isn't.
I've posted the membership criteria.
Twice.

Does the military not have any support groups for male spouses of deployed personnel?

That I don't know.

What I do know is that the women of the MWC found a gap and filled it with their own hard work, as a space designed by them, for them to come together and share their experiences. It wasn't just nicely laid on for them from the start.

So why can't this chap do the same? Why must it all be done for him to suit him and be open to him just because he says he wants it?

As for camaraderie - are all these sons, brothers, fathers, male military personnel all utterly incapable of organising a get together themselves? Must the women sort them out, or accommodate them?

For starters I'd quite like to know how many mothers and sisters are in the average MWC - they aren't going to be living on base are they?

As for organising it himself - how many of the current members of the MWC organised it themselves? I'd wager not very many, they joined ones already set up.

Maybe Gareth Malone could go and set up some military husband choirs?