Men saying that MWC should include male spouses

[Madvixen]

So the Military Wives Choir movie is out this week and I've just read a blog post from a male spouse stating that MWC should become more inclusive and include male spouses and families.

It's made me rage but now I feel guilty for being angry. He's in a really lonely position (there's very few male spouses) but why does that mean he gets to come into a woman's group?

Ahhhhhhh what do I do? Do I reply to the tweet and say what I think or suck it up?

Ugh, there’s no limit to a male’s entitlement to a female space, is there?

Why does he need to join the choir? I’m sure he’d be welcomed in any other military spouse support group, but one booming male voice in a female choir is just going to ruin everything

Reminds me of the man complaining that he wasn’t welcomed into a breast cancer support group for women. Just let women have their spaces! Start your own mixed group or male group if you want one!

I can see both sides of this, but if you look at it as a group for spouses who are supporting military personnel, then surely it shows progress to include men, since it encourages the notion that men can be SAHPs and that women are just as capable of having a successful and prestigious military career (or gay men if he's gay).

As I understand it, the man is not saying that he's a woman, he's saying that he's a man who performs the same role as many women. If he were saying he was therefore a woman for performing that role, then I would have a problem with that. But he seems to be saying 'look,,it's not just women who do this - men can do it too', and I think that's a good thing for feminism as it means the woman is the breadwinner.

I think it's also a good thing for the GC position as he's maintaining he's a man while performing this typically 'female' role, and I believe that it's the rigidity of gender stereotypes that has brought us to where we are with gender ideology.

Agree that there might issues in terms of blending a small number of baritone men into a score intended for sopranos and altos, though!

Its not just an issue over music not being arranged for male voices. A male alto sings at the same pitch as a female one (and female tenor similarly) but their voices sound different. A female tenor will be able to nail the top register but her voice will not sound like that of a male tenor.male voice choirs don't include women tenors. It would change the sound of the choir.

A male counter tenor doesn't sound like a woman.

And seriously, if he wants to sing, there would be local SATB choirs crying out for him.

He would have a case if it the criteria was just spouses... But it isn't. It's ALL women with a military connection. So his (serving) wife could join. Her mother could join. His (adult) daughter could join.

There are plenty of other support groups for military families which welcome both men and women.

The original choir name was Military WAGS- Wifes, Affiliates, Girlfriends, Servicewomen.

I think the opposite of you Steppemum, having been in the military, I was excluded from some stuff because I wasn't accepted by 'wives of', when I became 'wife of' I was excluded from stuff my friends in the military were doing, but still not accepted by wives. When I had kids it opened up a previously closed avenues of socialisation, that have since closed as my kids are older. I now have other options open.

Deployment of a spouse can be a lonely, worrying time especially if you're living in a foreign country, but as everybody does you learn to fill your days.
Your friends doing something for two hours that you can't do, isn't that life?

Given the majority of troops are now based in the UK, I'm sure he could find a choir or chours he could attend in a nearby town.

I wonder what the attitude would be if a Male choir did not allow women to join.

They dont, as they are MALE choirs for MEN.

HTH

It's a female voice choir.

Not a male voice choir, not a mixed choir.
He should start one of those himself.

If he's as opposed to sexist assumptions, like all military spouses are wives, perhaps he should eschew his own sexist assumptions first, by starting his own mixed voice choir instead of being a bloke demanding women reorganise themselves to accommodate him?

I sing in a mixed voice choir. I actually prefer the mix of voices. But hell's bells, I completely understand that some women enjoy being in a female voice choir, and think any bloke that wants to destroy that opportunity is a wanker.

I completely understand that some women enjoy being in a female voice choir, and think any bloke that wants to destroy that opportunity is a wanker.

That's true. I guess the thing about it being a choir specifically is the fact that the creative product of the collaboration of the group is fundamentally altered by having even one male voice present. And because the choir members receive instant feedback on their collaboration, it ruins the whole experience.

It definitely does.
We don't have quite the right balance in our choir (sopranos are overrepresented) which means altos and men have to try to boom out stronger to compensate for their lower numbers. It affects the quality of the sound.

One or two men amongst dozens of women will sound wrong and will unbalance the choir. In exactly the same way as one or two female sopranos piping at the top of a classic Welsh male voice choir would ruin their specific sound.

You might as well complain that children's choirs exclude adults, and a capella groups exclude instrument players, and string quartets exclude trombonists...

There is controversy about girls joining boys curch choirs - about their voice, not their sex (mostly).

I would think that a woman's choice would sing different songs/pitch (don't know the technical terms) than a male voice choir - sing higher?

What if they sing songs with words like 'Im just a girl who can't say no' (the first one that comes to mind here)! The focus would be on him if they sang that - of course, people would look at him as they sang those words - would be comfortable being looked at or have to play the comic fool in that instance?

It's a shame - singing is great fun - but you cant make people let you join if it's really not for you.

It's a female voice choir, Not a male voice choir, not a mixed choir.

This is a much stronger argument in this case for me.

Assuming the MWC started from a place where only men were in the arm and deployed, therefore you could only have Wives, I think a Military Spouse Choir is fair. Surely if there is only a few husband it is harder to be supported if you can only be supported by the same sex.

It's made me rage but now I feel guilty for being angry. He's in a really lonely position (there's very few male spouses) but why does that mean he gets to come into a woman's group?

I don't see why it needs to be a women's group. This is imo a very very different situation to a DV shelter or other such situation that should be based on sex.

Surely the define characteristics of the group is not that they are women, but they are all married to military personnel?

It just doesn't work does it - he may as well ask to join the women's netball team - you can't bung a couple of men in to a women's choir and expect it to all be the same - they can't sing at the right pitch.

My mate from Uni was a 'military husband' - there were enough blokes wherever he was stationed (a couple of places in the UK, at least one in Germany) that they had a mens group each time. Not a choir, but pub and pool for example, like the poster above said.

Those of you who are arguing he has a point don't understand how arranging music for voice works.

It's like someone who plays a tuba complaining that they aren't allowed to join the strings group. Or a violinist complaining they aren't allowed to join a brass band.

Now now Clymene, it's just the girls doing a bit of glorified karaoke, not something to take seriously...

I had a quick gander at the membership criteria of the military wives' choir.

Contrary to what others have suggested, it is explicitly a female-only choir. The key characteristics are not that you be a spouse. It is that you are female and have a military connection:

Membership Criteria
Membership shall be open to any female who has an interest in assisting the choir achieve its aims, will honour the choir’s code of conduct and meets at least one of the following criteria:

1 Wife, fiancée or co-habiting partner of serving British armed forces personnel
2. Serving or retired British military personnel
3. Immediate family of serving British armed forces personnel i.e. mother, sister or daughter
4. Wife, fiancée or co-habiting partner of veteran British armed forces personnel
5. Wife, fiancée or co-habiting partner of serving non-British armed forces personnel on UK postings
6. Civilian employees employed within the military community who provide a direct service to aid the welfare of serving military personnel and their families.

It's specifically a female-only endeavour. Sons, fathers and male spouses are all excluded because they are male.

It's as valid as any one of the many, many male voice choirs that exist up and down the country.

Surely there is stuff going on other than the choir? It can't be literally the only activity or group around? Whether within the military or in the local area.

It's a female choir.

Start a mixed one, or do something else etc. But no, women set it up, women organise it, it's for women by women, but men must be allowed in if they wish or snoffair.

Reminds me of the men who try and get women only swimming shut down.

When women fought to get access to men only things it was because our exclusion meant we were locked out of certain jobs, decision making etc.

You don't get women demanding that eg men only get together groups at the local hall let women in. (We have this for older men. They get bacon sandwiches, natch).

I don’t see why that’s an issue. I fully understand the need for single-sex spaces in situations where women may be vulnerable or in a state of undress, in sport and in healthcare, but having your spouse away, risking their lives while you are at home is the same whether you’re a man or a woman. The only reason it is mainly women who are military spouses is because of stereotypical gender norms to start off with - he absolutely should feel welcome to join a choir. The point of it is to give them something to focus on that is positive and for themselves. It’s a pretty sexist attitude to exclude someone on the basis of their sex for no legitimate reason. As someone else said, what would the reaction be if it was a musical group excluding women?

I wonder what the attitude would be if a Male choir did not allow women to join.

Have you really never heard of a male voice choir? South Wales is full of them.

Perhaps you've never come across Only Men Aloud?

Have you really never heard of a male voice choir? South Wales is full of them

Obviously there are male only choirs, but unless there are both male and female military choirs, it’s not really comparable. The purpose of it is different.

There is a legitimate reason- ITS A FEMALE VOICE CHOIR. It's musing arranged SSA. Not SATB.

Incidentally, men are involved in support roles, such as accompanists and musical directors. Padres and Welfare Officers, which are frequently male, are often involved. However, a man cannot sing in a female voice choir, same as a woman cannot sing and in a male voice choir.

Kinda completely missed my post then, Anonymouse99?

It's for females. Specifically. Just females.
Because it's a Female Voice Choir.
There's a reason it's open to daughters but not sons.
To mothers, but not fathers.
To sisters but not brothers.

Noone is assuming that there are an abundance of sisters, mothers, daughters.
It's a female voice choir.

what would the reaction be if it was a musical group excluding women?

Like....this, for example? Isn't it wonderful?

You tell me - do you object to these male voice choirs existing? Should these male voice choir festivals be immediately condemned and disbanded? Forced to become mixed sex?

I love male voice choirs.
And female voice choirs.
And mixed choirs.

It would be infinitely stupid to try to prevent any of them from being allowed to exist.

There's room for more choirs of all stripes. No need for the destructive pettiness that would spoil the specific beauty created by choirs that are single sex voices only.