Men saying that MWC should include male spouses

[Madvixen]

So the Military Wives Choir movie is out this week and I've just read a blog post from a male spouse stating that MWC should become more inclusive and include male spouses and families.

It's made me rage but now I feel guilty for being angry. He's in a really lonely position (there's very few male spouses) but why does that mean he gets to come into a woman's group?

Ahhhhhhh what do I do? Do I reply to the tweet and say what I think or suck it up?

I can imagine that the social side of things for military spouses is often woman centric by default. To then have an activity like this, which on the face of it would enable people from different social groups get to know each, but then excludes some people...I can see why he feels like he does tbh. The reason does seem to be purely musical, given that accompanists/directors can be men, but I don't think they're going for a particularly high standard, and a lot of rock choirs I've seen often only have 1 or 2 men anyway.

What I do know is that the women of the MWC found a gap and filled it with their own hard work, as a space designed by them, for them to come together and share their experiences. It wasn't just nicely laid on for them from the start.

What was Gareth Malone's role then? And the women who are joining established groups? They're joining choirs that have been nicely laid on for them aren't they? They're not founding members.

I saw the film last week with my DS ( its brilliant by the way so I really would recommend it.)

He asked on the way home why there were no 'military husbands' when women can join the army. And if there were, why they weren't in the choir. His (13 year old) thoughts were that men would miss their wives as much as the women missed their husbands (and wife). And they would have the same fears and worries about them not coming home as the women did.

I'm sure men do miss their partners who are away in the forces as much as women do. But this is a choir set up by women, for women.

Men are very welcome to set up one themselves. Or indeed several!

It's like a violinist complaining the brass band is not being inclusive enough because it has no string parts. Female voice choir folks.

Particularly naff in the choral world where so many choirs and associated opportunities are reserved for boys and men only. And in the military world with its historic male dominance. The women have one thing and men want to elbow right in?

Clymene

So basically then, any club or organisation that was set up by a man could now reasonably close their doors to women because men have done all the hard work in setting them up?

As love mentioned before on the thread, the men do set up groups... But they do things like meeting at the pub.

It's been a while since I watched the Gareth Malone show, but I can't remember there being much emphasis on the fact that it was women only. It was all about having something to belong to, a time out etc etc. And as is apparent, men are involved anyway. The only real objection seems to be an artistic one.

Hear you're being silly.

There are loads of men only things around.

And if you are not a charity, have no state funding etc, you can invite who you like.

If I meet a group of women in the pub to talk about books once a week, and a man comes up and says you have to let me join, the answer is, no I don't.

And he doesn't have to let me join his casual board games group either.

He can have who he likes there.

This is getting into a serious interference with private life now!

Women are not allowed to meet under any circs at all, without showing any men who want to join in, join in.
Will make nights out at the pub interesting

FrogsFrogs

That wasn't the argument though.

The argument was that women set these groups up so men are out of order for wanting to benefit from the work they've done. If that's a fair point then men should be able to do the same and anything that they've put effort into setting up should be for men only.

Unfortunately military does not usually have clubs for male spouses of servicemen/women. Wevused to have an Officers Wives Club which has becomes Officers Partners Club. I think where there is no seperate equivalent for a male, then the clubs should become inclusive.

FrogsFrogs, I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to keep it female, if they want to. I just wonder how it would actually make much difference to them, and whether it was just set up as a women's choir because the default trailing spouse is a woman.

That wasn't my argument Hear and it wasn't the argument used by many. But don't let the truth get in the way

Golf clubs and yacht clubs and other clubs used to be men only. They never required that women desiring to join go through the effort of setting up their own clubs. They became more inclusive and allowed women to become members. We should mirror that. We are as bad as the men who tried to excludecwomen from men’s clubs thirty years ago if we try and justify excluding men. It sexist bigotry no matter how you dress it up.

So you think all choirs should be mixed sex then?

So the King's Singers and all those lovely Welsh male voice choirs and all the cathedral choirs and choir schools will be admitting girls and women into their main choirs ... when exactly?

I feel like I've wandered off the feminism board.
How fecking hard must women justify, and defend, and justify, and defend their own women only organisations?

I bet not one of the posters going, oh, but the poor man has NOTHING else he could possibly do other than bother the female voice choir, have EVER thought for one millisecond of attacking male voice choirs and telling them they're exclusionary and mean to women.

Same sex organisations, choirs, sports, associations, hobby groups are entirely valid, entirely legal, and entirely justifiable.
For BOTH SEXES.

And multiple choirs can co-exist in the same area. People can belong to more than one choir, and do.
Of all the many options available which include
Starting a military male voice choir
Starting a military mixed voice choir which may also include any members of the MWC who want to sing with both choirs
Starting a smaller singing group
Joining an existing mixed choir
Joining an existing male voice choir
Joining any other social club mixed or single sex for camaraderie

There is an intense focus not on exhausting any of those other options, no, but instead on attempts to make sure women do NOT have the option to enjoy their own longstanding female voice choir. Because a man thinks women having women only things is really mean, and apparently, lots of women agree with him. So other women are only permitted to be in a group without men up to the point at which a man says he doesn't like it. And then they mustn't.

No wonder we're watching our rights diminish daily. We're giving them away and wagging fingers at any woman who won't wave goodbye to her own.

No is a complete sentence. Not the opener to a negotiation.

(to Plan, Aroundtheworld makes my point more concisely.)

That wasn't my argument Hear and it wasn't the argument used by many. But don't let the truth get in the way

I didn't say that it was your argument or the argument used by many, but it was an argument that was used on here.

You said it was the argument. After a post in which you referred to me directly.

I can't be bothered to talk to you to be honest. It's tedious and a waste of my time. Have a good evening.

Barracker

But you are ignoring the point that there might not be enough men to be able to set up a military husband choir. You can hardly have a choir with 4 people in it can you?

Secondly, I'm sure that you have to have some musical ability to set up a choir. This man might nit be a talented singer or musician. He might just want to join in with a group who understands his particular circumstances, and sing. Perhaps many of the women members would be unable to set up their own choirs for the same reason.

General male voice choirs aren't the same. They don't have the particular military connection and aren't intended to also provide support for spouses of military personnel. This is a particular set of circumstances that don't apply to general choirs.

Clymene

The feeling is entirely mutual.

"And if you are not a charity, have no state funding etc, you can invite who you like"

Many activities for military spouses are indeed funded from the public purse (military welfare budget). Including at least some of the choirs.