Does transphobia actually exist? What does it actually mean?

[happydappy2]

If we separate out transwomen working in the sex industry which is inherently dangerous, are trans people actually victims of targeted harassment because of their trans status?

Is the 'hate' TRAs talk of just incorrect pronoun use, women voicing their concerns of having men in single sex spaces, telephone banking systems misgendering people? etc etc, all pretty trivial, certainly not literal violence.

I imagine most couldn't give 2 hoots how people 'identify' as long as they stick to the same rules as everyone else in society, but appreciate I could be wrong so looking for more information if anyone has any.

Frogs No idea why my last post got deleted but obviously won't reiterate it....maybe it was making a generalisation-didn't realise it was offensive though.

"For example, at present if a male feels unsafe going into male spaces, instead of dealing with the sexism/homophobia of the males in the male spaces, he claims that it is ‘transphobic’ that he is denied admittance to female spaces."

I am not entirely sure though how it is helpful in this context to frame gender non-conforming males as a clear and present threat to their wives and daughters if you want men to accept gender non-conforming males as part of their tribe so to speak. Transphobic acts committed by gender conforming men are also not going to be limited to men's toilets, so the idea that everything would be hunky dory for everybody if we could just teach men not to harass or even worse beat up gender non-conforming males for going to the men's loos is at the very least a bit naive.

'
I am not entirely sure though how it is helpful in this context to frame gender non-conforming males as a clear and present threat to their wives and daughters if you want men to accept gender non-conforming males as part of their tribe so to speak'

Ah interesting.

No one is saying GNC men are a threat to women. Well, no more of a threat than other men, anyway.

Most men understand that women and girls are at risk from a not insignificant minority of men. How those men dress is entirely irrelevant. What is relevant is that they are men, and that is why we have single sex things in that first place. That and points around privacy and dignity, most men and boys don't want women in their areas either for those reasons.

'Transphobic acts committed by gender conforming men are also not going to be limited to men's toilets, so the idea that everything would be hunky dory for everybody if we could just teach men not to harass or even worse beat up gender non-conforming males for going to the men's loos is at the very least a bit naive.'

Lol yes the idea is only to say don't be bastards in toilets but it's fine everywhere else

The idea that male violence is impossible to tackle is terribly pessimistic.

I also want to know where you want the other men to go who are at risk from male violence. All the groups other than trans who get threatened, beaten up etc. Should they come in with the women as well, for protection? Seeing as it's impossible to stop men from being violent. And how do we tell which men coming in with us are from the at risk group and not the violent group? And what about men who are at risk from other men but would still prey on women and girls?

Feels quite complicated interested to hear your solution.

You do get the impression from a lot of the threads on here that men who are GNC are seen by many as inherently much more suspicious than men who aren't. Just an observation.

I am obviously not advocating that women's spaces should be open to everybody in need of protection or that male violence is fundamentally impossible to tackle. I am just suggesting that wittingly or unwittingly feeding transphobia and/or pretending that it doesn't exist is not part of any solution.

reallyelsewhere

Where has anyone framed ‘gender non-conforming males as a clear and present threat’ to anyone’s ‘wives and daughters’? They are male so no more or less of a threat to females than any other male.

Genderists fail to accept that males as a sex pose a threat to females, whether they are sex role conforming or not is irrelevant, which is one of the reasons males are excluded from female spaces regardless of how conforming or not to stereotypes they are. If however, males feel at risk in male spaces, e.g. in changing rooms, toilets etc, they could campaign for third spaces for themselves, which could be self-contained single occupancy spaces, away from both male and female spaces.

What is absolutely unacceptable is claiming males should be shielded from discrimination or harassment by forcing females to pretend such a male is actually a female in any way. Males not accepting other males into their spaces is a male problem, not a female problem to solve. It is entirely unreasonable to expect females as a group to act as a kind of shield for males, and give up our rights to safety, privacy and dignity, so that some males feel less threatened. Again if males really feel at risk, campaign for third spaces for those males. Campaign for males to be accepted as males regardless of how they dress or behave. What is naive is thinking that campaigning to reinforce the idea that a ‘feminine’ man is not a real man, will somehow stop any discrimination directed at sex role non conforming males.

I am very much GC, but I'm a bit baffled that you are suggesting that transphobia might not exist. Asserting women's rights to safe spaces is not transphobic. Neither is stating biological fact. But insulting or attacking somebody just because they are transgender definitely is transphobic. Just as insulting or attacking someone just because of their sexuality is homophobic. Are you really suggesting that no trans people have been insulted or attacked because they present as trans? I'd be utterly astonished if that were the case. We all know there are people (well, men) who would be threatened and disgusted by a man presenting as a woman and would happily give them a mouthful of abuse, if not worse.

“Are you really suggesting that no trans people have been insulted or attacked because they present as trans?”

Of course people are sometimes insulted or attacked, because they do not conform to stereotypes of dress the sexes are supposed to conform to, that is true whether they belive in genderism and call themselves trans, or if they do not call themselves trans and are feminists or gender critical. No one is disputing that people are sometimes insulted or attacked for rejecting sex stereotypes. What is disputed is whether that should be called sexism and/or homophobia (as it always had previously) and so should be covered under anti discrimination laws and policies related to sex and homophobia. Or whether a new word should be used for it called ‘transphobia’ (now that queer theory has been invented) and anti discrimination laws and polices should instead refer to it as ‘transphobia’ instead of sexism and homophobia.

Considering that homosexuality and transvestitism are terms both coined around the beginning of the 20th century and it was already established at the time that transvestitism is not strongly correlated to homosexuality, I find the idea that trans as a prefix for cross gender behaviour or expression is particularly newfangled quite odd. I can see why there may be a strong connection between the perception of GNC and homosexuality in the case of Butch Lesbians, but GNC behaviour to a degree that they would actually wish to be appear unambiguously feminine seems very rare nowadays in gay men - at least in a normal public setting. There are of course Drag Queens, but I would think most people would clearly see them as a separate thing. And as some people have already pointed out, some people who are gay can be quite transphobic too, so homophobia really doesn't cover it in those instances. Sexism is obviously always a thing, but it is largely independent of sexual orientation or gender conformity, so I would think that it would be entirely understandable that people who feel discriminated against because of their gender non-conformity should be able to name the problem. I do appreciate that transphobia is an overused accusation and that you can argue that it is rooted in sexism, but it is hardly the only overused accusation that is thrown around like candy. Yet, I would hope that most people wouldn't suggest that racism is not a thing even though it can be an overused term. If the shoe doesn't fit, just don't wear it. No need to pretend that there is no shoe.

There are at least 2 different conversations going on here.

OP was questioning whether trans people are ever subjected to discrimination or violence due to being trans, full stop. And implied that the only poor behaviour towards them were this like misgendering:

'Is the 'hate' TRAs talk of just incorrect pronoun use, women voicing their concerns of having men in single sex spaces, telephone banking systems misgendering people? etc etc, all pretty trivial, certainly not literal violence.'

This is what people are responding to with, you seem very naive if you think that people who are trans get shit.

The point around transphobia Vs homophobia/ misogyny is v interesting but unrelated to what the op asked.

reallyelsewhere

Yes there are heterosexual men who are called transvestites, it has been observed for many years that transvestic disorder and AGP exist, the motivation behind those disorders has always been accepted to be sexual. If one wishes to campaign for this group of males, then better to be honest about it, rather than going under guise of campaigning for the rights of sex role non conforming people, who are not motivated by the same thing.

“Sexism is obviously always a thing, but it is largely independent of sexual orientation or gender conformity”

This is the difference between genderists and feminists. Genderists believe they are independent, feminists do not.

At the risk of being deleted I'm treading carefully. Could it be that a transwoman who knows they are a biological man and lives their life respecting womens rights to single sex spaces that exclude men, and does not enter them-experiences significantly less "transphobia" than a transwoman who feels they have a right to be in womens spaces as they are also a woman?

'you seem very naive if you think that people who are trans get shit.'

Don't get shit!

Oops

Happydappy I doubt it because most violence is meted out by men and they are capable of acting in a variety of situations.

'Could it be that a transwoman who knows they are a biological man and lives their life respecting womens rights to single sex spaces that exclude men,'

If they prefer masculine presentation then they won't get trouble anywhere tbh, at least not for being trans.

That's another interesting side to this.

Do you have suggestions as to how women should live their lives to avoid misogyny? Is it my own fault?

I first came across transphobia when the men in the office refused to allow a male at the very start of their transition journey into the gents

The answer has to lie with men. This is a problem for men to do with other men.

The thing that really bothers me about the 'solution' of putting some men in with the women to keep them safe, is it does nothing to protect all the other sorts of men who are at risk from other men. The 'solution' does nothing except pick one group of men out of loads to protect and putting women at risk and reducing their privacy etc.

Tackling male violence would make things better for all men, why is there no and women too, c everyone in fact, yet it seems to be off the agenda across the board. Presumably because men have agency and you mustn't try to tell them how to behave etc?

But where's the evidence of trans people being attacked more than anyone else? It's well documented that most violence is committed by men. And transwomen commit as much violence as other men.

Many attacks reported as being by women turn out to have been by transwomen, like one that was widely reported at Leicester Square tube station:
courtnewsuk.co.uk/six-month-wait-for-transgender-gang-sentence/
or Carol Lea, who attacked a teenaged girl with a hammer in a parking dispute:
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/shocking-moment-woman-uses-hammer-16349776
or Katniss Everdeen (yes!), assault and racist abuse
www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/hunger-games-thug-launched-racist-16686668

It's harder to collect information now that police and the prosecution service record male criminals as women if the men want them to. That obviously skews the statistics, making women seem to commit more violent crime than they do. A site called Transcrimeuk.com is trying to keep the record straight.

But I've never seen any statistics or other evidence that TW suffer more violence than they inflict. The appalling murder statistics people quote are from places like Latin America, where women are murdered at the same high rate.
Does anyone have any evidence of violence against transpeople in, say, western Europe? Or of violence against transpeople anywhere exceeding that country's rate of violence against women?

Because if not, and if the transphobia women are accused of inflaming simply means rude remarks and snide tweets, then it's nothing that women don't live with every day. And nobody is offering to ban anything on our account.

OP didn't say evidence they are attacked more than anyone else.

OP said evidence they are attacked ever at all.

Clearly, sometimes transpeople are subjected to both homophobic bullying and sexism, and also clearly, the larget trans rights political movement is both homophobic and sexist.

The question as I read it was 'is there a special kind of discrimination that only people who self-declare as having an opposite sex identity receive', and my answer is 'no'. They receive ((and give) variants of discrimination and prejudice more commonly aimed at women, and at gay men and lesbian women.

What is disputed is whether that should be called sexism and/or homophobia

But many trans women are lesbians. i.e. males sexually attracted to women. How can it be homophobia if they are heterosexual (unless logically they are women).

Because the sort of men who attack people on the tube etc read them as gay men. Or just men who don't conform to what men ought to be.

Toxic masculinity for your, innit.

The men doing the attacking neither know nor care how the victim identifies internally.