Does transphobia actually exist? What does it actually mean?

[happydappy2]

If we separate out transwomen working in the sex industry which is inherently dangerous, are trans people actually victims of targeted harassment because of their trans status?

Is the 'hate' TRAs talk of just incorrect pronoun use, women voicing their concerns of having men in single sex spaces, telephone banking systems misgendering people? etc etc, all pretty trivial, certainly not literal violence.

I imagine most couldn't give 2 hoots how people 'identify' as long as they stick to the same rules as everyone else in society, but appreciate I could be wrong so looking for more information if anyone has any.

Tristai in the UK when it comes to murder, I think the stats show that trans women are at slightly less risk than the general population.

Around 2 women a week are murdered. Obviously there's a lot more women than trans people (definition I'm using is the old one, otherwise the stats become a bit random), the motivation for a lot of these murders is essentially misogyny, ideas about ownership etc.

Black men are murdered by the police possibly at a higher rate than trans people (not got stats bit know one happens occasionally and the other rarely).

But this sort of thing is framed as less bad.

The idea that trans people are the most oppressed in society is offensive nonsense.

I do think that when a straight white man transitions and starts to experience the way society treats groups that aren't straight white men can come as a shock, and feel oppressive. And this is where the 'most oppressed' thing comes from.

Being given funny looks
Being laughed at
Being called names
Having things shouted at you or said to you
Feeling at risk in various everyday situations

All that stuff is not unusual for lots of other groups. And the message has been, ignore them, turn the other cheek etc. If there's violence then that could warrant a report to the police but don't expect too much.

trans people arent more oppressed than black people but who is competing?

Interesting no mention of women

Who is competing? Trans advocates when they say over and over that trans people are the most oppressed people in society and so they need the most urgent help, resources, etc etc

Tristai- you object to people misgendering. If someone objected to you describing them as “cis” what would your response be?

There are certainly people around who are rather vocal specifically about how bad and wrong it is to break gender boundaries or be ambiguous about gender regardless of whether it is framed in terms of gender identity or not and regardless of whether there is a situation where there is a valid safeguarding concern.

I am not quite sure whether transphobia is a particularly good word for this kind of attitude, but it seems to be very much about gender as a social norm that needs to be enforced and not about sex, so I would think that it is quite distinct from sexism and homophobia, although it may often (but not always) be clustered with these attitudes.

It goes without saying though that it is of course nonsense to file all negative experiences people have while either identifying as trans or just looking like it as transphobia.

Discrimination Olympics is a race to the bottom and is actually pretty appalling.

Regardless of the percentage of a minority group who suffer discrimination, it’s entirely unacceptable.

Yes there is violence against transgender people ironically mtf are at less risk of physical abuse and more of a tongue lashing but that's what makes the arrests transwoman attacks natal woman gets brushed under the carpet natal woman says trans woman used penis to rape her brushed under the carpet (America) natel woman misgenders on twitter court case and upheld man retweeted something court case and thrown out

'gender as a social norm that needs to be enforced and not about sex, so I would think that it is quite distinct from sexism and homophobia, '

It is utterly and completely related.

Gender is the role enforced on people because of their sex, and transgression is punished.

Gender =

men are strong, emotionally constipated, heterosexual, sexually dominant, rational etc,

women are weak, controlled by emotion, sexually there for whatever men rather than having their own sexuality (hope that makes sense), submissive, seen and not heard etc

Men and women who step outside the roles are viewed with suspicion and sometimes meet with violence.

This is all well known though isn't it?

Although these roles are transgressed to a certain extent commonly and accepted, there is a point at which the push back comes.

I’m trying to work out if the so called transphobia, is actually a reaction to the person behaving in an anti social manner, ie XY person using ladies bathroom, as approved to the social norm of XY people using mens bathroom.
Correctly sexing a human should not be deemed transphobic, rather the fact that some people seem intent on controlling others speech should be called out as fascism.
I have no problem with males wearing traditionally female clothing as long as it’s not overtly sexual & pornified-that does make me feel bit squeamish as it strikes me as more of a fetish.
Is my behaviour actually transphobic?
I don’t deny transexual people exist but I do believe in the right to be honest.

I would say that it is definitely transphobia if the act of transgressing gender boundaries in a non-sexed public space and in the absence of any other behaviour that could be deemed anti-social is enough to trigger the negative reaction

For example: If a trans woman or a trans man or somebody merely dressed in a non-gender conforming way on a train carriage or a bus is just minding their own business and somebody takes umbrage with them being there, I would definitely call this transphobic.

Tristai,
"There are trans people murdered every year."

Would you care to tell us how many transpeople have been murdered in the UK in the past five years?
Then maybe compare that low, single figures number to the number of women murdered in the UK - 139 women died as a result of male violence in 2017 in the uk.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/18/women-uk-femicide-statistics-died-male-violence

Even though it stems from sexism and homophobia and has been around for centuries while transphobia is a more recent term?

Many of the women burned as witches it was essentially because they were women who did not comply with gender role. You'd describe that at transphobia?

To me it feels that this will downplay crimes due to sexism and homophobia and inflate the numbers due to transphobia. Which would be in line with eg transing dead lesbians and gay men, and other GNC people, and the way that both the gay rights and women's movements have both been subverted to primarily work for trans people.

Sorry mine was a response to really.

I am not quite sure how you get that it is somehow downplaying crimes due to sexism and homophobia. Nobody is going to classify anything as transphobia unless there is a person involved who either self identifies as trans or is perceived as such and people (rightly or wrongly) assume that their trans identity was the core reason for their perceived mistreatment. I don't think it matters in this context whether you count transphobia as just a specific form of sexism or as something entirely separate. You may not agree with them, but surely people should be allowed to describe their experiences in their own terms?

Are suspicion, criticism and disagreement the same thing as a phobia?

Absolutely not

Your example was of a GNC person, not trans, getting shit in a public place.

You said that was definitely transphobia.

Crime of that type has always happened and at its heart was always sexism/ homophobia.

If you count all those crimes as trans crimes or frame them that way, then obviously that will have an impact.

Most GNC people do not have a trans ID (unless they're young maybe!) , and most of the attackers won't have that frame either.

If a butch lesbian gets beaten up it feels very wrong to frame that attack as a trans crime, surely you can see that.

Whether it is a good thing or not (I personally think it is a bad thing) GNC people are nowadays mostly read as trans. And this is not going to change unless you require trans people to wear some kind of badge to indicate that they are actually trans.

Basically once somebody is making negative assumptions solely based on whether somebody looks trans they are not only clearly transphobic, but also going to make negative assumptions about quite a lot of people who don't even identify as trans and have no truck with the ideology whatsoever.

'And this is not going to change unless you require trans people to wear some kind of badge to indicate that they are actually trans.'

Lol. Hello hyperbole/ straw man.

How are people going to make a distinction between GNC people and people who identify as trans otherwise without asking or having further context?

And are they going to have a better opinion of them if it turns out they identify as GNC and not as trans? In some cases they may, but to expect that the majority of people are going to make the distinction is a bit far fetched.

@WomanBornNotWornit would depend wether those things lead to poor treatment or provision of services.

Prejudice is the thought, discrimination is the act.

Your example said X is a trans crime when it could well not be.

You can see why that would be a problem.

And especially in the context where trans advocates are incredibly good at appropriating the struggles of other groups.