Does transphobia actually exist? What does it actually mean?

[happydappy2]

If we separate out transwomen working in the sex industry which is inherently dangerous, are trans people actually victims of targeted harassment because of their trans status?

Is the 'hate' TRAs talk of just incorrect pronoun use, women voicing their concerns of having men in single sex spaces, telephone banking systems misgendering people? etc etc, all pretty trivial, certainly not literal violence.

I imagine most couldn't give 2 hoots how people 'identify' as long as they stick to the same rules as everyone else in society, but appreciate I could be wrong so looking for more information if anyone has any.

Being against "gender nonconformity" isn't transphobia. It could be homophobia, sexism, or plain old conservatism.

What I wonder is about the "being against" business. If I am against gender non-conformity, I guess that would include things like thinking those who are GNC should be imprisoned, or not allowed to do what they want. But it could be also that for some reason I think it is better for people to conform to gender norms, but I don't want to do anything to make that happen other than argue for why it is better. There could be any number of reasons I might think that. And it could be that my sense of what is gender conforming is quite broad or quite narrow.

But I can't see any instance like that as being supposedly transphobic.

Do trans-people get harassed and attacked? Some of them do, yes. Probably most of them experience it to some degree. (Same as do most women, most disabled people and most people of colour). And while I'm not trying to minimise the harm that causes to those people, the reverse is also true: having, or not-having a 'protected characteristic' doesn't magically make you either a saint or a ne'er-do-well, does it?

I personally dislike the use of the suffix '~phobia', as I feel very few people have an actual 'fear' or 'panic reaction' when confronted by the mere sight of transitioning/ed people, or gay people, or women, or people of colour or disabled people or any other 'X group'.

Surely if these 'others' were truly frightened and fearful of 'X group' they would keep their mouths shut and keep their hands to themselves? Surely they should hide, or flee, or seek safety?

Assault is assault, regardless of the status of the victim or the perpetrator. Harassment is harassment, irrespective of who is being harassed and who is doing the harassing. Having to take into consideration race, disability, sex, gender, religion, political group, etc, all just muddies the waters, I reckon.

I reckon these 'protected characteristics' are not fit for purpose and cause more problems than they fix by feeding the 'in-group' and 'out-group' mentalities we're (supposedly collectively) trying to get rid of.

I don't see how being a part of a 'magical class of special people' affords anyone any real protection in the real world. It just means that legally, people learn to lie better to hide their prejudices, or hide the real reasons why Jo from group X didn't get the job or doesn't get justice. It means disgruntled people can litigate and cause havoc when they don't get their own way.

Maybe it would be better if we were all a bit more honest all around. Or at least, allowed to be honest without being accused of wrong-think or criminalised for our beliefs: which is a right enshrined in the human rights act, last time I checked.

I don't think it should be a crime to offend somebody. Blasphemers, mockers and piss-takers should be free to do so, so long as the mockery that's been made or the piss that's being taken isn't regularly being directed to a specific individual. And I don't think it should be a crime to hate, either. Sometimes hate is the correct response. I reckon you should be free to hate, so long as that hate doesn't become assault or harassment or denial of an individual's human rights or access to statutory services.

I don't hate trans-people, as a class. I don't want them gassed, bashed or murdered in the streets. I reckon most of the shite they have to go through is totally unnecessary. I don't fear them, either. As a class.

I do, though, want to be able to freely state my own belief, that women are women by virtue of their chromosomes and no other thing, without being at risk of bodily harm or loss of professional status or becoming criminalised for such beliefs. I want to be able to freely state that I don't agree that a cure for dysphoria is surgical intervention. I want to be able to compete in women's sports with natal women only. I want to be able to refuse a person access to my vagina in a healthcare setting without being told I am an oppressor and without becoming denied access to services. I want to be able to run a women's group without being compelled by law to admit men who now wear dresses because I might upset somebody's feelings, and their feelings take precedence over my own.

quite the rant, that. cookies for those who got to the end.

Assuming that a transperson doesn't pass as the opposite sex in daily life:

Transwomen who experience discrimination or physical danger are experiencing a variant of homophobia - the (mostly) male outrage at, and punishment of, males who perform a non-masculine role. Don't ask me why men find that so threatening; I've no idea.

Transmen experience sexism, ironically from within their own community. They suffer from internalised sexism. They may also experience the kind of homophobia butch women receive, in punishment at transgressing feminine norms.

I literally only see sexism and homophobia at play. Transpeople can also display sexism and homophobia, and trans activists frequently rely on both misogyny and homophobia in making their 'arguments'.

I don't consider there to be an utterly unique form of discrimination and prejudice called 'transphobia'.

So far on this thread someones mentioned the case of a transwoman using the womens toilets, being called a pervert and later shot-that is awful, way too violent and I think that’s appalling. However, I don’t think women protesting about male bodied adults using their women only bathroom facility is transphobia, its just booting a male out of a single sex space. I think the word transphobic is very disingenuous.

Trans people are entitled to their language - and transphobia describes the prejudice that many of them encounter in the workplace and daily life.
As many posters have said - it is the broadest definitions of the word that is the problem - mainly when it involves removing the rights of others (mainly women) or silencing legitimate discussion.

Cries of "transphobia!" have become a bit like Ali G's "is it cos I's black?", a way to get away with all kinds of ridiculous behaviour and claims by playing on others' virtue signalling. The comparison is even more apt seeing as Ali G is not actually black, and those crying transphobia usually don't have gender dysphoria.

There is transphobia just as there is racism, homophobia and misogyny. The clamour of a minority of trans people to be offended or to continually make unreasonable demands does sort of drown out the real stuff like the guy in Sheffield who set fire to the trans womans front door.

I would say it mainly comes from a minority of men, more often than not under the influence of alcohol who are not afraid to make a public comment or threats and occasionally progress to violence. Sometimes it can be women but less often. It often says more about men than the trans person themselves. A little bit like everyone already knows the person is trans but they now also know that you are a prat too.

I think like a pp has said, if your aim is the blend in even if you do not really pass, life will likely be uneventful in the transphobia stakes. You will get the stares of disgust/hate as its hard for people to hide what they really think in their expressions but if you keep going with your head down it is possible to ignore it. Again that is their problem not that of the trans person.

Being denied work and accommodation is not unusual but that is very difficult to prove it is because you are trans although things in this department can very often go south when they realise the person is trans. For example going to view a flat for rent etc... I would say healthcare for trans people can be a minefield. If your GP is not fond of trans people they can make access to treatment very difficult and questions about your trans status when it has nothing to do with the presenting complaint are not unusual. I suppose that is more institutionalised transphobia as oppose to being directly rude.

I think the whole pronouns thing is a bit overblown. Genuine mistakes happen, if it is said with malice it can be hurtful but certainly not a crime unless it becomes targeted and amounts to a course of conduct for harassment. For example, a work colleague constantly calling a trans woman he to either get a rise or with the intent of causing upset is probably being a bit off even if it is their personal belief. For people who know a trans person, surely they can just use a name to avoid offence, what they say when you are not there is of little consequence.

I can imagine an employer might have to seriously consider the potential difficulties of employing a transwoman, if that individual is going to insist on using the ladies bathroom which had up to that point, been single sex. I personally don’t see that as transphobic, just a legitimate problem.

Of course it exists and is horrendous. If my child were to come out as trans I would be frightened for them. Not so much now thankfully if they are gay.

Transphobia is a hyped up word, it literally has no meaning now, because it ihas been constantly misused. Just take the example on another thread today, where a University of Exeter lecturer, Eva Poen, has been accused by all and sundry of being transphobic for saying on Twitter -

"Only female people menstruate. Only female people go through menopause"

thetab.com/uk/exeter/2020/02/28/exeter-lecturer-accused-of-transphobia-for-saying-only-females-menstruate-47008

No sane person on this planet could ever consider that to be transphobic, so I believe that Eva Poen has become the target of TRA hysteria.

I'm certain transphobic exists. Transwomen, whether they pass unnoticed as women or stand out in some way, are liable to be exposed to unwelcome comment, verbal abuse, sexual assault and even violence, just as women, girls, disabled people, people not of a dominant ethnic group, dressed in ways that signal a particular religious belief or speaking in a language other than the dominant one are.

In almost every instance, the more violent attacks are going to come from men. The biggest problem is male violence. It is everyone's problem.

For transwomen who have grown up as boys and then men, it should not be a surprise that this stuff happens. Surely they must have seen and heard women and girls being being catcalled, molested and tormented. Is there anyone alive who has never seen a person with dwarfism being openly laughed and pointed at when out and about? If transwomen present as women, they are of course likely to experience what women experience from men. How could that be a surprise?

Whatever made transpeople think they would be immune? What makes them think theirs is a special case and deserving of extra legislation and attention?

Moreover, why on earth would the most vocal and high-profile transwomen set out, apparently deliberately, to alienate their most natural and numerous ally in this struggle for safety and respect - women?

We are not the enemy and could be a useful support, but not when we're being blamed for violence we don't practise or condone and having slip-up over pronouns equated with bloody street beatings and labelled as transphobes.

Whatever made transpeople think they would be immune? Male socialisation. They've got no idea the amount of harassment and prejudice women face on a day to day basis, and so when the slightest thing happens to them they're outraged. One of the final straws for me was my trans former friend talking about how he had sworn at a man in the street who had tried to make polite conversation by asking him about his trans status at a bus stop. It sounded like a clumsy attempt at making small talk rather than anything sinister, and when I suggested this it was transplained how terrible it is to be harassed, as though I couldn't possibly understand! I've had to put up with far worse since a teen and don't have the advantage of being broad and over six foot so I can't get away with simply telling my harasser to fuck off, I have to be constantly dancing around dysfunctional men's egos.

Yes of course transphobia exists. The fact that the OP is even asking this question (that is, if they are genuine and not just posting for screenshots) shows what damage TRAs are doing by labelling absolutely everything as 'transphobic'.

People can be unkind, that affects everyone. Women are socialised to be kind, especially to men for our own protection. So women are generally not the ones being offensive to transwomen.
I think women clearly asserting their right to single sex spaces has been labelled transphobic, which I would disagree with. Misgendering is labelled as hateful transphobia, which is problematic as in no other situation are people expected to blatantly lie about what their eyes can see & their brain is telling them.
I think if you pick apart what TRAs are calling transphobic, a lot of it isn’t.

The misgendering thing I think is interesting, in terms of it being discriminatory.

In a few recent posts about the use of the word “guys” to refer to a mixed sex group of people has thrown up a fair few woman who find it offensive, misogynistic and sexist - two of which could be cited as discriminatory tactics. In effect they feel they are being misgendered.

When this view was challenged on these posts (as it being acceptable current vernacular for a group) the challengers had the term MRA laid at them.

There needs to be consistency and equality across the board when discussing the use of misgendering.

'Of course it exists and is horrendous. If my child were to come out as trans I would be frightened for them. Not so much now thankfully if they are gay.'

This makes no sense.

If a child or adult is trans but decides to present as their birth sex then how are they at risk eg on the street? While men or women holding hands on the street do get beaten up.

If they don't present as their birth sex then attacks are due to homophobia tbh

I’m finding this very interesting

Thanks for starting the thread happy

Pinky agree

Lots of women for years have been pissed off at eg being included in guys, being addressed by the wrong names or title when they get married and so on.

They were told to stop over reacting, don't you have anything else to worry about, it's a non issue.

They changed ladies and gentlemen for tfl v quickly due to non binary people, although it's well known that lots of women do not like being referred to as ladies as it's such a loaded term for women.

I would agree that most transphobia is actually sexism or homophobia. With them being linked, to do with female being lesser, and men get angry at men who are seen to be 'feminine' or the idea of sex where a man is 'in the place' of a woman. So many men are really weird about that stuff. In at least one country the penalty for a man having sex with a man is different depending on if he is penetrating (masculine) and being penetrated (like a woman).

Despite all this, transphobia (which is usually sexism or homophobia) is presented as a worse thing than sexism or homophobia

There are trans people murdered every year.

Yes Tristai sady there are people from all walks of life murdered every year!

@happydappy but your post is specifically asking about trans people and wether discriminatory behaviour exists for them, so the poster is specifically referencing trans people in their reply.

Transphobia exists.

Believing one cannot change ones sex or indeed believing women-only spaces should remain aren’t examples thereof.

Misgendering is only a massive issue when you can tell someone keeps doing it to make a point about their beliefs.

I turn it around by misgendering that person. They start off by saying it doesn't bother them but they soon start pulling their hair out at you. It is weird how much it can annoy people who have no dysphoria but insist that dysphora can't be a big thing.

My friend was a trans man (sadly he took his own life, he had a long history of severe mental illness which predated his transitioning and was due to extreme childhood trauma.)

He transitioned in his 30s, had a GRC. He however looked female, being only 5 feet tall, being ineligible for breast removal as his BMI was too high. He did have facial hair and testosterone somewhat changed his body shape.

He regularly suffered abuse in the streets, suffered discrimination (one woman told him they didn't want people like him doing voluntary work in their organisation)

I am gender critical, and it was not GC feminists who were abusing him but men.

Everybody has the right to feel safe walking down the street and have access to education, employment, housing etc.

My DD is a gender non conforming ie butch lesbian, she was openly abused and intimidated a couple of weeks ago in a pub and the police are investigating as a hate crime. Again it was a man who was responsible.

Hate crime does exist, misgendering someone is not a hate crime. Being gender critical and standing up for women's rights is not a hate crime.