Does transphobia actually exist? What does it actually mean?

[happydappy2]

If we separate out transwomen working in the sex industry which is inherently dangerous, are trans people actually victims of targeted harassment because of their trans status?

Is the 'hate' TRAs talk of just incorrect pronoun use, women voicing their concerns of having men in single sex spaces, telephone banking systems misgendering people? etc etc, all pretty trivial, certainly not literal violence.

I imagine most couldn't give 2 hoots how people 'identify' as long as they stick to the same rules as everyone else in society, but appreciate I could be wrong so looking for more information if anyone has any.

And when you see a woman committing a violent attack or read about a child being a bully do you think, oh yes members of those groups aren't likely to be helpless victims?

Some really odd posts on this thread.

I also don't like describing victims of crime as 'helpless' that feels iffy to me.

Yes transphobia exists. Anyone working in law enforcement will confirm that. Transphobic hate crimes are a real thing, and should be punished severely, as an attack upon a vulnerable group of society.

However... in my own view it absolutely is NOT transphobic to not accept privately that TWAW or to prefer that female spaces remain for women only. It’s madness that we are at a stage where those feelings are being described as transphobic.

Of course, but why is everyone talking about violence?
There's more to transphobia (and sexism) than "being beaten up".
OP mentions harassment - men and women harass trans people, including name calling and laughing, which, while not as serious as murder, is still phobia.

I also absolutely agree that transphobia exists. As others have said, the biggest threat is from homophobic and misogynistic men, not women wanting a discussion about how we manage the rights of different groups.
Ironically, I think there's also a lot of it within the trans movement. For example, 'truscum' is one of the nastiest and most transphobic terms I've ever heard.

Of course there is transphobia. The reason you are questioning it is because of what gets counted as transphobia when it clearly isn't but of course trans people can face violence and abuse for being trans.

The idea that it's just homophobia or sexism is interesting. Personally I think a lot of these words are applied in a way that isn't very accurate or helpful too. I've worked with men who some would consider sexist, for example, in that they have some traditional views about women. But they. were also thoughtful and treated everyone well and liked people for themselves. If you quizzed their opinions though they weren't going to make the woke cut. Similarly with homophobia, I've known people who were gay or lesbian to be called homophobic because they didn't support same sex marriage. To me these kinds of accusatory labels for what are really just different points of view are not helpful.

As far as people who really have a fear of or hatred for trans persons, and show it, yes, that exists IMO. A really clear example might be not giving someone a job on that account. It seems difficult to me to pinpoint how common it is, especially when it includes things like comments or when the individual has other risk factors.

The words sexism and homophobia are useful.

What counts and what doesn't is an argument that's been going on forever, but we certainly need words to describe eg a woman not getting a job because she might get pregnant or a man being beaten up because other men think he's gay.

What other words would do instead.

I'm as GC as they come and I'm sure it exists. I'm sure trans people do experience abuse as they go about their lives - as do ethnic minorities for being ethnic, women for being women, Jews for being Jewish, etc.

I had a transwoman friend who would regularly get harassed when we went out (about 7 years ago), usually by kids but also grown men. I would stand up for them and felt quite sad that this is what they had to deal with on a day to day basis (though I should add as a well-built person over six foot they weren't vulnerable to violence and I don't know of them ever being attacked). However, since this friend has become a full on TRA, and the whole climate of female erasure that is being pushed, I'm afraid I feel rather less sympathy. Transwomen have shot themselves in the foot with this entitled attitude and lost the best allies they had.

The words sexism and homophobia are useful.

I didn't say they weren't useful, I said they often aren't applied in a way that is accurate or helpful.

It's not an unimportant point, their over-extension is part of what has caused people to accept the over-extension of the term transphobia.

Transphobic hate crimes are a real thing, and should be punished severely

Heartwreckage

Can you clarify what you mean? Is the poem Harry Miller tweeted a 'hate crime?' Is using the wrong pronoun a hate crime? Is saying that you don't believe men can literally transform into women a hate crime? Harry Miller's tweet resulted in a police record. Maya Forstater's opinion terminated her job. Maria Mclachlan was lectured by a judge about her description of the thug who attacked her. What do you think about those cases?

Yes, it's an excellent LP by Mega City Four.

Being against "gender nonconformity" isn't transphobia. It could be homophobia, sexism, or plain old conservatism. I've wondered the same thing as OP. Yes, trans people are attacked or discriminated against but it's because of homophobia in every case I can think of.

My anecdotal evidence, having worked at a tourist attraction for several years and seen a marked increase in trans women visiting, is that women rarely say anything but men (my male co-workers and male visitors) take the piss and are incredibly rude once the trans woman is out of earshot. They would never say anything directly though as they are frightened that a trans woman would be physically aggressive to them.

I think it's worth mentioning that the trans person I knew, before they became trans, would dress up in extravagant, attention-grabbing outfits (think art school, DIY, performance art type stuff) and indeed a big part of their personality is being confrontational in the way they present themselves. For them, presenting as a transwoman similarly has an element of confrontation about it, as though it's a challenge for people to not say anything, to get them to comply with pronouns etc. I'm not suggesting all trans people are like this, but this person, who I know very well, gets a thrill out of dressing 'as a woman' and getting people to go along with it, and arguing with them if they don't. Therefore, whilst I'm sure no-one wants to have violence committed against them and many trans people just want to quietly 'pass' and get on with their lives, there is this other type that thrives on attention, harassment even. As I've said, this person is very well-built and as such at less risk of violence than almost any women and most men.

I think it's sexism and homophobia too like a pp said, rather than being transphobia. Someone getting beaten up or verbally harrassed for wearing the "wrong" clothes or behaving the "wrong" way.

... I forgot to mention an important point, which is that they got just as much harassment when they dressed in their previous style as they do 'dressed as a woman', which would suggest in their case that the reaction they get isn't so much transphobia as the general reaction people have to anyone dressed alternatively.

gets us no closer to the question of violence versus misgendering

Can you explain what you mean by this using clear, concise language? Are you attempting to conflate physical violence with an incorrect use of pronouns?

Sounds like the poster is doing the exact opposite of what you said.

@BovaryX I mean it in the legal sense. Any crime which is committed and in the commission is aggravated by being motivated wholly or partly because of the victims membership or perceived membership of the trans community. That makes answering some of your specific questions difficult. For example, ‘is using the wrong pronoun a hate crime?’, is impossible to answer without full context. In most cases, probably not, but it’s very much the intent and the surrounding circumstances which might possibly bring it within the definition of one of the crimes known to English/Scots/wherever law.

I’m afraid I don’t know the poem you mention.

@BovaryX

So for example, if it assists. If I went out into the street and encountered a trans woman, shouted and screamed obscene remarks at that person, and ended it by shouting to others gathered around ‘look at him, the freak’, this would be not only an offence, but also classed as a hate crime against a trans person.

I’d like to make clear that these are very much not my views of trans people, just trying to pick an example that’s fairly clear cut.

That makes answering some of your specific questions difficult

The fact that you are incapable of answering my perfectly reasonable questions is an answer in itself. Here's another question. A violent thug boasts about an intention to commit a politically motivated assault on a woman, prior to launching a violent attack. That is premeditation. Her assailant walks free from court, whilst the victim is lectured by the judge for describing her attacker. Was her attack a hate crime? What would be an appropriate sentence?

“Being against "gender nonconformity" isn't transphobia. It could be homophobia, sexism, or plain old conservatism. I've wondered the same thing as OP. Yes, trans people are attacked or discriminated against but it's because of homophobia in every case I can think of.”

^
This

I think in order to see discrimination against sex role non-conforming people as ‘transphobia’, one first has to believe in gender ideology, at least to some extent. If you don’t believe in gender ideology then you see it for what it is, ie homophobia and/or sexism. I think calling it ‘transphobia’ allows gender ideology to gain a legitimacy that is unwarranted.

Genderists also claim it is transphobic to correctly sex people who call themselves trans and call it ‘misgendering’. That it is transphobic when someone says ‘males should not be in female’s spaces no matter how they identify’ etc. What they mean by this is that it is transphobic to reject the genderist belief that people can change sex. Under this definition most people would be classified as transphobic.

@BovaryX

Your questions are reasonable, but that doesn’t mean there’s a one size fits all answer to them.

You are seeking blanket answers in an area which depends entirely on individual circumstance. You refer to the offender who ‘walked free’ and ask what sentence I would hand down if I were presiding over the case, but you don’t furnish me with the specific details of the crime itself, the details of the offenders criminal history, if indeed they have one, their age, their family circumstance, or what was said in mitigation by their solicitor. How on earth can I answer what sentence I think appropriate? Even if I were to go and read about the case online extensively, I still wouldn’t be able to answer as I wasn’t party to all of the facts as they came out in court. The person most qualified to answer is the judge who presided over the case on the day.

Re your question about that same incident being classed as a hate crime... does the victim fall into a protected group? If she does not, then I would say no it is not. A crime being hateful in nature does not make it a hate crime. Of course this may differ between jurisdictions.

I agree that its extremely problematic for any victim of a crime to be rebuked by a judge simply for using factually accurate terms to describe an offender. I worry about the impact that will have on victims and cases going forward, if this is the road the court system are choosing to travel down.