Does transphobia actually exist? What does it actually mean?

[happydappy2]

If we separate out transwomen working in the sex industry which is inherently dangerous, are trans people actually victims of targeted harassment because of their trans status?

Is the 'hate' TRAs talk of just incorrect pronoun use, women voicing their concerns of having men in single sex spaces, telephone banking systems misgendering people? etc etc, all pretty trivial, certainly not literal violence.

I imagine most couldn't give 2 hoots how people 'identify' as long as they stick to the same rules as everyone else in society, but appreciate I could be wrong so looking for more information if anyone has any.

It is of course perfectly ok to critically examine whether an incident is actually a case of transphobia or not, it is however a completely different kettle of fish to basically flat out deny that transphobia both as a mindset and as a motivator behind discrimination or attacks does exist.

I really can't see what is wrong with the following set of statements:

Does Transphobia exist? Yes.

Are all perceived instances of transphobia actual cases of transphobia? No.

Do you necessarily have to be a card carrying trans person to become a victim of transphobia? No.

It seems very odd to doubt that transphobia exists. Of course it does. Transwomen are abused regularly, mainly by men, but it happens

Really if you look at my posts, I was one of the first respondents, and said of course it exists.

Frogs, unless we have crossed wires, and you’re posting to someone else, I wasn’t arguing with you

I imagine trans women who 'present' as women are at fairly high risk of being beaten up by homophobic men.

I live in Mexico City and just woke up to the shocking news that a transwoman and his bf went to a gay club last night and the transwomen was horribly and viciously attacked. I imagine it wasn't the most respectable gay club in the city but, whatever, he seems to have been attacked by gay men.

Sorry bowers my reply was to really, not you.

If transwomen are being beaten up by homophobic men, doesn't that suggest that homophobia is at play ??!!

What I’m really trying to extrapolate from this situation is.....are trans people at risk because they are trans, or because they behave in ways in which people find upsetting?
Ie males using women’s bathrooms
Displaying aggressive behaviour
Expecting to control other peoples language (insisting people refer to males as ‘she’)
Is reality itself transphobic in which case the very word is meaningless?

At the heart of all this is the fact that men who identify as trans have more protection under the law than women, which seems very wrong to me.

No, trans people are at risk because some people genuinely are bigoted. Some people hate to see a male-bodied person in a dress just as much as they might hate to see the same person holding hands with another man, or a woman in a hijab; and they react with threats, insults and violence.
That's a different matter from people objecting to trans-identifying males muscling into women's spaces - although I fear that the vileness of the current debate is likely to give strength to the bigots' arm, just as there are spikes in Islamophobic attacks in the aftermath of Islamic terrorist attacks. It's massively sad and horrific for everyone, not least trans people who want to live their lives in peace.

smith

Mumsnet dont like the something something males (muscling in) phrase

I’m just giving you a heads up in case your post disappears

What I’m really trying to extrapolate from this situation is.....are trans people at risk because they are trans, or because they behave in ways in which people find upsetting?

I've seen trans people come into shops, minding their own business, and both men and women smirking behind their backs.
I've heard men and women joke about the "tranny" that works at the gym (on the reception desk, not entering changing rooms).
Not violence, not their fault, but transphobia.
This is one of the most transphobic threads I've read on here, and I'n as GC as they come.
Imagine if someone posted they didn't believe sexism existed.

Well no happydappy

Aside from the side track into trans/homo phobia, misogyny

Of course trans people will get abused and discriminated against, as do all people who are outside the 'norm'. Whether the cause is homophobia or transphobia from that side of things is irrelevant, a man out a woman who deviates too far from gender role will get shit. From low level stares/ comments to violence.

Do you genuinely not realise this?

A man or a woman that should say!

are trans people at risk because they are trans, or because they behave in ways in which people find upsetting?

Put like that, you could say that about any form of discrimination.

“I don’t like to see two men/women kissing, it’s upsetting”
“I don’t like to see a white woman in a relationship with a black man, it’s upsetting”
“I find it upsetting to have a female boss, it’s not right”. Etc

There are those that think only males should be able to wear ‘masculine’ clothing and only females should be able to wear ‘feminine’ clothing, they hold sexist stereotyped views about the sexes. When a male is insulted or abused for wearing ‘feminine’ clothing, or when a female is insulted or abused for wearing ‘masculine’ clothing, it is because the person discriminating against them holds sexist views about how the sexes should dress or behave. Therefore, any discrimination would be motivated by them holding sexist views, the reason for them discriminating would be sexism, the way to prevent it is through anti sex discrimination laws and polices. Not laws and policies based on the nebulous concept of ‘transphobia’.

Most people assume a male who wears ‘feminine’ clothing is a gay man, and a female who wears ‘masculine’ clothing is a lesbian woman, so any negative remarks or abuse will usually be driven by homophobia in addition to sexism. Homophobia itself comes from sexism, as homosexuality is the ultimate defiance of sex roles, which is why they are fairly open about ‘transing the gay away’ in countries where sex roles are strictly enforced such as Iran.

Obviously people are well aware that defying sex role stereotypes in dress, or behaviour means they will usually receive some kind negative reaction from society, it is one of the main reasons the majority conform to them (to some degree). What Feminists disagree with is calling the discrimination against people who defy sexist stereotyped roles of dress and behaviour ‘transphobia’, and writing laws and policy based on this nebulous concept, when it is obviously really sexism and homophobia that we all face when we defy sexist stereotypes, and laws and policies should reflect that. Calling this aspect of sexism and homophobia ‘transphobia’ does not actually change reality.

stopthisnow

Your stance is pretty much equivalent to telling somebody who gets harassed because she is a Muslim that Islamophobia is not real and the real problem is organised religion and that by abolishing organised religion Islamophobia magically disappears. Which may technically be true, but it is a) unachievable, b) repressive and c) doesn't solve the original problem.

This has been interesting, my take on what has come up is that overwhelmingly men ridicule trans women, it is NOT women passing judgement, and it could be considered that it’s due to homophobia or sexism. (Though pp has noticed giggles/raised eyebrows aimed at transwomen behind their back.) I live in a major city, very multi cultural, people from all walks of life and I have not witnessed any transphobia, hence me asking for concrete examples of it.

'Which may technically be true, but it is a) unachievable, b) repressive and c) doesn't solve the original problem.'

In your view it is impossible to stop sexism and homophobia so just tackle transphobia?

I don't think you can have meant it like that!

'I live in a major city, very multi cultural, people from all walks of life and I have not witnessed any transphobia, hence me asking for concrete examples of it.'

I've never seen a gay person being beaten up by I believe it happens :/

If you want examples of trans people being attacked, or indeed gay men, lesbians or women, then Google is a good shout.

In schools for eg were bullying is rife, I have no doubt that children who declare a trans id can get bullied for it.

Do you doubt this happens?

And whatever the root of the prejudice of the attackers, in that case, they know about and are acting due to that specific declaration from the victim.

Frogsfrogs

All three obviously need to be tackled. But surely if you want to tackle sexism and/or want to "abolish" gender or even just mitigate its negative effects you are going to have to enable people to transcend socially constructed gender boundaries without being harassed for it?

Recognising that both transphobia (or whatever you want to call it) and gender identity ideology are ultimately attempts to get people back into their gender boxes one way or another is IMHO quite important.

reallyelsewhere

People need to be able to critique or wholly oppose ideologies, including religious ideologies, and any harmful practices they endorse/promote without being smeared as ‘phobic’. Feminists have written very detailed critiques of organised religion, there are very important reasons why feminists critique various religions and their practices. Discrimination and/or attacking someone or calling for violence towards a group or asking for their dismissal from employment because they believe in an ideology/religion is something else entirely and should be protected under religion/belief.

“if you want to tackle sexism and/or want to "abolish" gender or even just mitigate its negative effects you are going to have to enable people to transcend socially constructed gender boundaries without being harassed for it?”

Yes, we can do that by covering people who are discriminated against for not conforming to sexist roles under anti sex and homophobic discrimination laws and policies.

For example, at present if a male feels unsafe going into male spaces, instead of dealing with the sexism/homophobia of the males in the male spaces, he claims that it is ‘transphobic’ that he is denied admittance to female spaces. It is not dealing with the discrimination, it is shifting the problem into females. Males are denied admittance to female spaces due to the fact they are male, the fact is they are being treated the same as any other male. The concept of transphobia maintains the male is being denied admittance to female spaces because he is being discriminated against because he is ‘just a different type of woman’ and so it is transphobia on the part of the females who object to him being there. Laws and polices based on the idea of transphobia allow some males to transgress female boundaries, under the guise they should be treated as a ‘different type of woman’, in order to avoid discrimination directed at them by other men. Laws and policies like this do nothing to actually address discrimination of sex role non conforming people, they just entrench gender ideology, i.e. the idea that a male who is sex role non conforming should be treated as just a different types of woman.

If the aim was really about protecting sex role non conforming people from discrimination, then the focus would be on challenging males and institutions to accept sex role non confirming males as the males they are, and challenging any discrimination they experience under anti sex/homophobic discrimination laws. It would not be about inventing another word for a particular type of sexism/homophobia, which conveniently also leads to entrenching sexism and homophobia evermore into the fabric of society, and forcing females to protect males from other males.

“Discrimination and/or attacking someone or calling for violence towards a group or asking for their dismissal from employment because they believe in an ideology/religion is something else entirely and should be protected under religion/belief.”

Just to clarify, obviously I mean a person who experiences discrimination like this due to their religious or other belief should be covered under anti discrimination laws and policies relating to religion/belief.

Oh what sort of thing did the op say. Really intrigued!