What do you think about the rainbow flag?

[DJLippy]

Does anyone else get a shudder when they see a rainbow flag outside a venue? Harry the Owl compared it to a Nazi flag and I'm inclined to agree.

I'm Bisexual so I should be thrilled to find all these inclusive spaces but I just feel a stab of anxiety and make a mental note to steer well clear. It's a real physiological reaction not something I can control.

A few years ago I used to love seeing the pride flag outside bars. I guess back then it actually meant something. Now I feel like it's actually a sign of exclusion - that anyone who doesn't believe that twaw is not safe there.

Also it does kind of imply that all the other venues are a threat to the LGBTQI++ people. I actually get a lot less grief being with a woman in a normie bar than I would in a gay bar. What's more its often just random cafes and shops which as far as I am aware have no gay history. Just feels like a cheap virtue signal by straight woke folk.

I'd be interested in hearing from people who are same sex attracted. Do you feel that the flag which used to represent your community been appropriated by male supremacists? Do you self exclude from spaces which fly the rainbow flag?

We're just going to have to disagree as not all women want to exclude trans women

That is up to the individual...but when it comes to public services, spaces and sports, single sex provision exists for a reason.

There would be no need to keep crying "exclusion" if you campaigned for third spaces - rather than attempting to colonise the spaces of other protected groups.

I just don't feign innocence and pretend I can't see what's wrong with a definition that actively excludes trans women

Are actual women included in the definition of 'trans woman' then? If not, isn't that exclusionary too?

Exclusive does not necessarily imply hatred or leaving some out in the cold - it implies the discrete properties or characteristics of a group. all members of that group share a certain set of exclusive characteristics. In this case, being biological females.

Trans women are, by nature, excluded from this group - as women are from being 'trans'. Trans suggests a state in between one thing and another. a middle/in between/not fully defined state.

Women have earned the right to organise and protect their own interests. Trans people need to fight for similar for themselves. that does not involve colonising the spaces of another group.

There is a difference between excluding of transpeople which would be wrong and not normally seen on these boards...and wanting transpeople to Either be included with the rest of their sex or have separated resources for transpeople if they feel that's a better solution for them than sex separated facilities.

Automatically assuming people mean exclude is unfair and untruthful,

If you force women to accept transwomen you will be including transwomen and excluding some women , because that's why we have sex separated stuff in the first place

But i know some people care more for a transwoman than a raped woman or a Muslim woman

But i know some people care more for a transwoman than a raped woman or a Muslim woman

Absolutely! I've been astounded in recent times by the number of people who care little about the condition of women and girls...and who have real little grasp of the very real lived experiences.

That people can actively campaign for women to lose their rights to single sex spaces which are required for their comfort, dignity, privacy and safety.

The rainbow flag has now come to signify acceptance or belief in a particular ideology. To the point that the believer can no longer even identify it as an ideology.

That ideology rests on a belief that sex is not real, and that the only real measure of a person is their 'gender identity'. That not everyone has a gender identity is not recognised - because this ideology necessitates that everyone must now define themselves by some invisible 'gender identity'.

This ideology privileges trans people over women; and furthermore denies their very real existence as a specific and exclusive group with their own specific needs and requirements.

It has become symbolic of a tyranny of the unreal and imagined, over the real and measurable.

As I said before, straight males i.e. the current group of transwomen, are front and centre of what the rainbow flag currently represents, so I don’t see why other straight people can’t comment on it [shrug]

Quite.

It has become symbolic of a tyranny of the unreal and imagined, over the real and measurable.

Yes.

BBC article (only quoting men) on the display of rainbows to support the NHS
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52724818

Sample quote: “What will our rainbow flag be if wider society sees it as something different?"

ie what people have been saying on this thread too.

It has become symbolic of a tyranny of the unreal and imagined, over the real and measurable

This. I'm loving the outrage from the 'queer community' about the NHS appropriating 'their' rainbow. The irony that most of the appropriation protests seem to be from people who aren't actually gay, but who have inserted themselves into what was the gay rights movement, seems to have passed them by.

The Rainbow will always mean Green Peace to me.

Their boat The Rainbow Warrior was blown up by French secret service agents.

Green Peace adopted the rainbow long before the LGB community. No one can have copyright on a rainbow. That's just daft. But if anyone does - it's Green Peace, surely.

If anyone has copyright on a rainbow, isn't it Noah?

The Rainbow will always mean Green Peace to me.

Or “peace” generally. Especially in some countries like Italy, the rainbow flag was very widely used with that connotation.

As a gay man, I don’t necessarily feel alienated by seeing a rainbow flag stuck to the window of a shop, say - as you till fairly re entry, it just meant the place is gay and lesbian-friendly and I’d hope the owners are just using it in that positive way.

But now that I know what I do about the TRA movement, any indication of “wokeness” is a total no-no for me, and I’d now be very hesitant about going to such establishments. One sign would be the use of the other new “diverse” Pride flags.

As this Cosmo article explains, the gender diversity has even made its way into the new Lesbian flag... www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/love-sex/relationships/a30254147/lesbian-flag/

Mother Nature surely?

*as until fairly recently

LemonPudding I still have items stickered with my Greenpeace rainbows from the 1970s. And a rainbow jumper or two.

Didn’t come to mean LGBTand Uncle Tom Cobbley and all til much later. So yes, it’s a symbol for hope that many have used.

I’m much keener on seeing the rainbow flag as an NHS symbol than an alphabet soup signal. And that’s speaking as a lesbian.

As a lesbian, I find it weirdly performative if straight people or normal bars have a rainbow flag.

First, it makes me think, “am I not allowed to be safe somewhere without a flag then?” Secondly, everyone knows the flag isn’t for lesbians anymore. Or gays. Or bisexuals.

Personally, if a ‘normal’ pub is decked out in gay paraphernalia it weirds me out. To gay people, being gay is just a part of your life. 100% appreciate there not being homophobia, but I also don’t need a bunch of straight, self-proclaiming ‘allies’ shouting about how much they love and accept me (alongside transpeople) for woke points.

I must admit however, it pleases me greatly that my homophobic neighbours who think I’m the devil incarnate have a gay pride flag (the actual gay pride 🏳️‍🌈 one with six colours) hanging outside their front door right now.