Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What do you think about the rainbow flag?

669 replies

DJLippy · 28/02/2020 12:13

Does anyone else get a shudder when they see a rainbow flag outside a venue? Harry the Owl compared it to a Nazi flag and I'm inclined to agree.

I'm Bisexual so I should be thrilled to find all these inclusive spaces but I just feel a stab of anxiety and make a mental note to steer well clear. It's a real physiological reaction not something I can control.

A few years ago I used to love seeing the pride flag outside bars. I guess back then it actually meant something. Now I feel like it's actually a sign of exclusion - that anyone who doesn't believe that twaw is not safe there.

Also it does kind of imply that all the other venues are a threat to the LGBTQI++ people. I actually get a lot less grief being with a woman in a normie bar than I would in a gay bar. What's more its often just random cafes and shops which as far as I am aware have no gay history. Just feels like a cheap virtue signal by straight woke folk.

I'd be interested in hearing from people who are same sex attracted. Do you feel that the flag which used to represent your community been appropriated by male supremacists? Do you self exclude from spaces which fly the rainbow flag?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Lordfrontpaw · 05/03/2020 08:52

Owners - not wonders...

ReinstateLangCleg · 05/03/2020 08:53

I don't think you can build the foundation for respectful interaction and mutual respect without being truthful.

Defining things as they ARE, not as some people might desperately wish they could be, must be the starting point.

SapphosRock · 05/03/2020 09:09

The real comparison here would be whether everyone should be allowed to freely self-identify as a parent

Well yes, actually they can. My DW is the legal parent of our DC despite having no biological connection to them. Just the same as adoptive parents really.

If a trans woman is legally a woman and has a female partner and they want to call themselves lesbians that's fine by me. No need to get all would up and start going on about rape culture.

ReinstateLangCleg · 05/03/2020 09:22

My DW is the legal parent of our DC despite having no biological connection to them. Just the same as adoptive parents really.

I don't think that's the same as what I asked:

The real comparison here would be whether everyone should be allowed to freely self-identify as a parent despite having no children, biological or that they care for.

SapphosRock · 05/03/2020 09:27

If a person identified as a parent without having any children they cared that would be odd I agree.

But trans women with female partners are effectively in very similar relationships to lesbian relationships so it's not so odd.

Binterested · 05/03/2020 09:32

Similar in what way ?

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 05/03/2020 09:50

But trans women with female partners are effectively in very similar relationships to lesbian relationships so it's not so odd

Well gay men with male partners can either adopt or act as a father figure

As can straight men and straight women if they join another family

Everyone can can’t they?

Pretending to be the parent of a non existent child is completely different

SapphosRock · 05/03/2020 09:53

Similar in what way ?

Two women in a relationship with each other.

Yes, yes I know the consensus on here is TW are not W. However if the TW concerned considers herself to be a woman and her partner considers her to be a woman then I can't see a problem with them being two women in a relationship. It's not anyone else's business.

SapphosRock · 05/03/2020 10:00

Incidentally, my TW friend who is in a relationship with another woman does not call herself a lesbian. She just says she likes women.

In my experience most trans people identify as pansexual or queer rather than bisexual or lesbian.

ReinstateLangCleg · 05/03/2020 10:06

If a person identified as a parent without having any children they cared that would be odd I agree.

Female and male are biological sexes.

How is it less odd to identify as the sex you empirically are not and never can become (medically speaking), than identifying as a parent when you do not have a child?

There are distinctions between lesbians and males-who-identify-as-lesbians. I use that clunky phrase deliberately because there is no such thing, to my mind, as a male lesbian.

But trans women with female partners are effectively in very similar relationships to lesbian relationships so it's not so odd.

This is a heterosexual couple, biologically speaking. (It's a sticking point from a personal experience that is too revealing to go into on this forum, so apologies for not expanding on it.)

So to use a more general example for discussion, I'd like to ask you how Alex Drummond, a previously heterosexual male who transitioned in middle age, is a lesbian now? What barriers did Alex have to overcome (structural, familial or internal) to accepting or expressing a sexual orientation towards women? Does Alex "draw out the inner lesbian" in women?

If a trans woman is legally a woman and has a female partner and they want to call themselves lesbians that's fine by me. No need to get all would up and start going on about rape culture.

If you don't think it's a problem, that's great! Genuinely. Glad things are going so well where you are. Smile

I agree with other lesbians who think it is of serious concern. I've thought about the issues, argued and gone over logically what I am seeing for a long time. I'm quite solid in my opinion, as a consequence. I believe we should have a right to speak about our experiences and thoughts.

Is there a space where we may do so, without being called hateful or disbelieved or accused of hyperbole or needing security or having to prepare for attempts to shut down our meetings?

If so, where?

SerendipitousDreams · 05/03/2020 10:26

I'm a life long lesbian and I'm in a same sex relationship. My partner has never liked the flag or involved herself in any Pride events. I, on the other hand, didn't mind the flag at all but like my partner, I never got involved with any Pride events either.

Over the past two years my feelings towards the flag have slowly changed. I now hate it and feel a sense of dread every time I see it. Just today I spotted a rainbow with 'We love love' next to it in a shop window and my stomach instantly turned over. It no longer represents me, a lesbian woman, and I now consider the rainbow flag a sign of oppression.

SapphosRock · 05/03/2020 10:34

How is it less odd to identify as the sex you empirically are not and never can become (medically speaking), than identifying as a parent when you do not have a child?

That is fundamentally having zero understanding or respect of the nature of being transgender. Fine to hold that opinion, not so cool to hijack the Pride parade and hand out flyers accusing trans women of supporting rape culture.

Binterested · 05/03/2020 10:41

No one has ever been able to give a coherent explanation of what it is though. And you don’t attempt to in your post. You just say this is Not the right way to understand it.

There is never any explanation beyond woo and feelings. Like how seeking for an explanation of God will never uncover his truth. Belief must suffice.

Sorry I’m a non believer. Until I hear something I can understand.

Dammandblastit · 05/03/2020 10:43

I'm in the same position as SeredipitousDreams in that I now avoid rainbows wherever possible. It basically warns me that I won't be welcome. I'm straight and intelligent enough to know that there are only two sexes, but that people can wear whatever the heck they want as long as it's appropriate for the situation, and date or sleep with whoever they want, as long as it's appropriate, consensual and legal. The rainbow now represents nothing but oppression of my rights as a female. It tells me I count for nothing, I'm the bottom of the heap and I am not wanted.

Rainbows can go fuck themselves.

NotBadConsidering · 05/03/2020 10:45

hand out flyers accusing trans women of supporting rape culture.

Jeez Sapphos, you’re still liberal with the truth aren’t you? You yourself quoted the flyer. It said:

The LGBT community is coercing lesbians to accept penises as female organs and heterosexual intercourse as a lesbian sexual practice.

This is clearly not saying transwomen are supporting rape culture. It’s saying the whole community bears responsibility by allowing this ideology to progress unchallenged. Your nice transwoman friend who was horrified should be sending Riley Dennis a message telling Riley to desist from selling such an idea to all of Riley’s followers, not getting upset at the women who brought it to your friend’s attention.

Oblomov20 · 05/03/2020 10:48

I don't like it, I've never liked it, and I don't really know why. I'm not opposed to it, I just find it cringeworthy.

SapphosRock · 05/03/2020 10:49

I now avoid rainbows wherever possible. It basically warns me that I won't be welcome. I'm straight...

Rainbows can go fuck themselves.

This absolutely sums up the thread!

ReinstateLangCleg · 05/03/2020 10:50

That is fundamentally having zero understanding or respect of the nature of being transgender. Fine to hold that opinion, not so cool to hijack the Pride parade and hand out flyers accusing trans women of supporting rape culture.

I think you'd be surprised at just how well I understand it.

Much of what is being argued by transactivists, and those who are trying to support the ideology, is not logically coherent.

I've honestly tried my best to work this out for myself, but the central premise, which is that gender identity should supersede sex, is fundamentally flawed. I think it does damage to the female sex.

Unlike some people, I don't have the ability to see gendered souls.

I love the female SEX.

Binterested · 05/03/2020 10:51

Well there’s always your deliberate and repeated misrepresentation of what’s on those leaflets. Quite instructive.

ReinstateLangCleg · 05/03/2020 10:57

Quite instructive.
Sadly, yes.

Dammandblastit · 05/03/2020 11:18

SapphosRock Well that's a nice piece of editing to try to misrepresent what I said.

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 05/03/2020 11:51

How is it misrepresenting?
It is literally what you said.

SapphosRock · 05/03/2020 11:55

I'm afraid it is literally what you said Dammandblastit

It seems that people are surprised that the rainbow flag doesn't centre straight people and their feelings.

NotBadConsidering · 05/03/2020 12:04

It seems that people are surprised that the rainbow flag doesn't centre straight people and their feelings

Really? It seems to place straight males right at the top of the pecking order at the moment.

ReinstateLangCleg · 05/03/2020 12:16

It seems that people are surprised that the rainbow flag doesn't centre straight people and their feelings.

Women (whatever their sexual orientation) are disappointed by how much vehemence and disdain is being shown to members of their sex by people who proclaim themselves "inclusive" and wave the rainbow flag.

No, we don't centre heterosexual women in lesbian/bisexual spaces nor should we feel any need to.

But I think it's quite tragic for any woman to feel a sense of hostility from the symbol of the LGBTQ+ community.

As an aside, I find it interesting that I was asked to consider the feelings of males-who-identify-as-women and men, but not to show any empathy for heterosexual women.