What do you think about the rainbow flag?

[DJLippy]

Does anyone else get a shudder when they see a rainbow flag outside a venue? Harry the Owl compared it to a Nazi flag and I'm inclined to agree.

I'm Bisexual so I should be thrilled to find all these inclusive spaces but I just feel a stab of anxiety and make a mental note to steer well clear. It's a real physiological reaction not something I can control.

A few years ago I used to love seeing the pride flag outside bars. I guess back then it actually meant something. Now I feel like it's actually a sign of exclusion - that anyone who doesn't believe that twaw is not safe there.

Also it does kind of imply that all the other venues are a threat to the LGBTQI++ people. I actually get a lot less grief being with a woman in a normie bar than I would in a gay bar. What's more its often just random cafes and shops which as far as I am aware have no gay history. Just feels like a cheap virtue signal by straight woke folk.

I'd be interested in hearing from people who are same sex attracted. Do you feel that the flag which used to represent your community been appropriated by male supremacists? Do you self exclude from spaces which fly the rainbow flag?

It’s not limited at all, I have massed of empathy for both my son and my male rescue dog.

I don’t centre them in discussions on a feminist board though, because the aim of this place is to look at topics through a feminist lens and discuss how female people are uniquely affected.

I’m getting bored of people rocking up and demanding we talk about and empathise with the feelings of male people, tbh.

If discussions are centred around trans women, as many are on here, then by default they are about biological men. We can’t really cut men and their feelings out of the discussion when the discussion is about them and their thoughts and feelings.

We can’t really cut men and their feelings out of the discussion when the discussion is about them and their thoughts and feelings
Perhaps if women and girls weren't cut out of the discussions in the first place we wouldn't be in this mess.

"All done under the radar" they admitted.

I'm referring to discussions on Women's sport, Women's sex based spaces, Women's and Girls changing rooms, Girl Guides, Guide Leaders, Girls and leaders sleeping arrangements for camps, Women only shortlists, Women in business awards, M&S changing rooms, Women's refuges, Women's prisons...
I'm sure there's more.

But in every. single. case. there were more biological men in the discussion groups than there were women.

Transwomen can and should be discussed by women because it directly affects women and girls.

BIOLOGICAL WOMEN.
BIOLOGICAL GIRLS.

@Elsiebear90 - I don't consider myself to be 'at war' with everyone with a Y chromosome - indeed I married one and gave birth to and raised three more - all wonderful human beings (not that I am biased, of course). Even our cat is male - though to be fair, he is a bit of a bastard.

I am at war with the expectations of a certain group, that women should step back, relinquish all their boundaries, and let a small group of biological males into our sex-segregates spaces, sports, support groups, domestic violence shelters, rape crisis centres, women-only short lists etc. I am at war with the declaration that trans women are women - because I do not accept that a biological male can change into a biological female. And I am at war with the suggestion that scientific fact (the binary nature of biology, and the fact that a man cannot become a woman, and vice versa) should deserve abuse, rape threats or suggestions that my dying in a grease fire would be a good thing (not abuse I have faced personally, but threats that have been made to other gender critical feminists).

I am at war with an ideology that is based on outdated gender stereotypes - you like pink and skirts, you must be a girl, you like rugby, have short hair and don't wear make up - you must be a boy.

I am at war with anyone who suggests it is a good thing for children who are too young to make such a life-changing decision to be given drugs that halt puberty, and put them on an almost inexorable path towards medical and surgical transition - whilst, at the same time risking osteoporosis and stunting cognitive development.

Suddenly I have this song in my head.

Funny, this one has been in mine whenever I think of what's happening on this thread:

It left her really upset and shaken that she is perceived by some lesbians as rapey and abusive just for being who she is. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I have empathy for this person. Of course. I also have empathy for a heterosexual man who falls in love with a lesbian. Or a man whose feelings get very hurt when he interprets a general argument about male violence and women's wariness of males as a sex class being specifically about him. I feel like there ought to be other people available to manage those emotions, who know what that might feel like first-hand. For example, transactivists or men. I can't pretend I share those types of lived experiences with males, however they identify, because I am female.

I'm quite done with being asked to suppress the truth in favour of the feelings of others or presenting an image of "respectability" when I seem to get very little in return for this labour. From my experience in trying to ignore things about myself, it rarely does any good and is more likely to cause damage in the long run.

I'm interested in females. What are other lesbians and bisexual women who are getting upset feeling and why? What were their thought processes to get them to the stage where they felt they needed say or do something? What's happened to them before or since? Who is supporting them?

Again, I would never demand that anyone else shares my point of view, nor claim that many do. Not trying to guilt trip anyone nor deliberately provoke any defensive reactions from prodding at potential sources of cognitive dissonance. Nobody owes me anything.

I've continued to post here in case it helps any other same sex attracted woman lurking who perhaps feels the same way I do but is frightened or told to be quiet because she is "bonkers." To any such reader, I say: it really is alright to feel this way. You're not alone. That eerily familiar pattern people around you might be trying to convince you isn't there? I see it too.

I also feel sorry for a woman who cannot have much wanted children or has suffered miscarriages - who suffer when their friend announces their pregnancy or they sit under a poster of a gurgling baby and it makes their heartstrings twang.

But I have never once heard any such woman demand that their feelings be protected at all time from the biological facts.

I see the demand that I put male people before female people and I think "really? you're still trying this?".

Nah, mate, never going to happen.

Just gonna pop these down.

Magdalen Berns on the definition of lesbian.

Magdalen Berns on why Feminism is for women, and not a general equality movement;

I note it didn’t upset her enough to do anything about it, to tackle that part of her community and hold them to account.

You see this attitude makes me laugh. It's as though all trans women know one another and are somehow connected.

Lesbians get this all the time too 'oh my sister in law's cousin is a lesbian, her name is Lorraine. Do you know her?'

We don't all hang out en masse and have no obligation to hold each other to account for anything. See my previous post about lesbians being autonomous human beings.

I also feel sorry for a woman who cannot have much wanted children or has suffered miscarriages - who suffer when their friend announces their pregnancy or they sit under a poster of a gurgling baby and it makes their heartstrings twang.

Me too. Very much so. Would you hold up a placard in front of these women saying:

'Infertile: unable to reproduce itself; unable to have young.'

It's biological fact after all.

One more:

Magdelen on the difference between sexual orientation and sexual preference and why both are valid reasons for not dating someone, but in different ways.

Who is to say they aren't handed leaflets offering babysitting or mummy yoga classes?

If your acquaintance was targeted specifically, then that a bit shitty - but people handing out leaflets tend not to look at whoever they are trying to give the leaflet to. An unpleasant fact was stated - well that's life, isn't it? Dont make a drama, ignore and get on with it.

You see this attitude makes me laugh. It's as though all trans women know one another and are somehow connected.

I am glad you find it funny, I certainly don’t. You think you have to know people personally to call out their harmful actions? Funny, because I don’t know you and I can still point out where you are wrong on here. I can also call people on their poor behaviour on other social media. If I was given a leaflet saying part of my community was carrying out harmful actions, I could stand with those handing out the leaflets. I could attend AGMs of groups I am a member of who represent my community and put forward motions, or support motions condemning this behaviour. I could call out anyone referring to people as ‘Terfs’...

Why would this be different to universities offering courses to male students on consent ? Some have taken offence and I can understand why but many men get it.

Wasn’t it Ruth Hunt anyway who told us that men will always rape women ?

I also feel sorry for a woman who cannot have much wanted children or has suffered miscarriages - who suffer when their friend announces their pregnancy or they sit under a poster of a gurgling baby and it makes their heartstrings twang.

Me too. Very much so. Would you hold up a placard in front of these women saying:

'Infertile: unable to reproduce itself; unable to have young.'

It's biological fact after all.

Apologies profusely to any women with fertility issues. I am going to need to unpick this, and I appreciate it's sensitive (please skip this post if you need to).

SapphosRock for your question to make sense, we need to make the analogy one that actually fits what is being discussed on this thread.

Hypothetical scenario: Several women who have already given birth to their own biological children self-identify as infertile. They are trans-infertile, because they have an inner essence that is infertile, which is mismatched from their physical body which is fertile. This causes them a lot of anguish. They start to take up space in groups for women with medically recognised physical fertility problems. They demand that none of the infertile women talk about their medical needs because this is "othering." They then expect the infertile women volunteer at creches to look after their children, so as to enable the self-identified-infertile women to attend, otherwise they are being exclusive and bigoted. Then the infertile women decide they're fed up with this, so they make placards with the dictionary definition of what they are, showing them at medical conferences for fertility issues, so as to protest these developments.

In such a case? Yes, I would 100% support the rights of the biologically infertile women to take such an action, even if that would really hurt the feelings of the trans-infertile-women.

If I was given a leaflet saying part of my community was carrying out harmful actions, I could stand with those handing out the leaflets.

So you suggest my trans women friend should have joined the Get the L out protesters at Pride and helped them hand out leaflets saying trans women who are attracted to women promote rape culture? Are you for real?

ReinstateLangCleg I agree that making comparisons with infertile women (which I didn't make) is insensitive so let's not discuss further.

There are lots of cases where stating dictionary definitions and biological facts could be seen as goady and aggressive though.

For example:

'Marriage - the legally and formally recognised union between a man and a woman'

Nothing wrong with this definition unless it's being used to protest against gay marriage.

as an infertile woman @ReinstateLangCleng you put that beautifully and powerfully and I completely agree

That’s because we have changed, by consent and democratically agreed, the definition of what a marriage is. It can now be between two men or two women.

We are emphatically objecting to changing the dictionary definition of woman. And certainly to it’s being changed without discussion by TRA fiat.

I am sad to say that I too get an immediate horrible reaction in my stomach when I see it. The opposite used to be true. I valued and respected the rainbow flag as a symbol of gay pride. I guess now I see it as the property of those TRA's who push a violent misogynistic agenda through institutional capture.

You need a new dictionary Sapphos !

Article from 2013: www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/07/25/oxford-dictionary-will-change-the-definition-of-marriage-to-include-equal-marriage/

So you suggest my trans women friend should have joined the Get the L out protesters at Pride and helped them hand out leaflets saying trans women who are attracted to women promote rape culture? Are you for real?

You mean leaflets reporting behaviour that consitutes a rape culture? Yes why not if she thinks this behaviour is reprehensible?

hand out leaflets saying trans women who are attracted to women promote rape culture?

I didn’t think the leaflets said that...can Anyone prove they did or didnt

I’m going they didnt in the absence of any other information

RufustheLanglovingreindeer it was on the flyer. They also state it on the home page of their website. Relevant bit copied below. Quite a claim really! Especially as none of the lesbians on this thread seem to have experienced it first hand.

The LGBT community is coercing lesbians to accept penises as female organs* and heterosexual intercourse as a lesbian sexual practice.*

We oppose this manipulative ideology and denounce it as a form of rape culture aimed at lesbians, as well as a form of conversion therapy.

We are emphatically objecting to changing the dictionary definition of woman.

I think you may find it isn't actually possible to change the definition of the word "woman."

Which means you can't change the definition of the word "lesbian."

Definitions cannot be circular and baseless.

"A nyfigution is anyone who identifies as a nyfigution."

If I didn't already happen to know what a nyfigution is*, that statement would make no sense at all and be profoundly unhelpful.

I await developments on the other current thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3837149-How-are-we-the-same to see if it there might be some sort of unifying factor that reliably bonds all males-who-identify-as-women and all females-who-identify-as-women, but not females-who-identify-as-something-other-than-women. And for this to be more a more stable and accurate classification system than our current use of biological sex.

I won't be holding my breath.

*Nyfigution = a word I just made up to mean anyone who says "yes" to the question "are you a nyfigution?"