What do you think about the rainbow flag?

[DJLippy]

Does anyone else get a shudder when they see a rainbow flag outside a venue? Harry the Owl compared it to a Nazi flag and I'm inclined to agree.

I'm Bisexual so I should be thrilled to find all these inclusive spaces but I just feel a stab of anxiety and make a mental note to steer well clear. It's a real physiological reaction not something I can control.

A few years ago I used to love seeing the pride flag outside bars. I guess back then it actually meant something. Now I feel like it's actually a sign of exclusion - that anyone who doesn't believe that twaw is not safe there.

Also it does kind of imply that all the other venues are a threat to the LGBTQI++ people. I actually get a lot less grief being with a woman in a normie bar than I would in a gay bar. What's more its often just random cafes and shops which as far as I am aware have no gay history. Just feels like a cheap virtue signal by straight woke folk.

I'd be interested in hearing from people who are same sex attracted. Do you feel that the flag which used to represent your community been appropriated by male supremacists? Do you self exclude from spaces which fly the rainbow flag?

God it’s a shame we don’t know each other. My niece is a beautiful, cool kick-ass firefighter.

Here’s a better flag.

To my mind it's still an obfuscation of the central difficulty.

If lesbians cannot exist as a distinct, separate category (females who love only other females), and if we use our voices then we mustn't raise them above a whisper if we state our sexual orientation is based on biological sex - so as not to offend - what are we really saying?*

The thing is, I honestly don’t think in reality it is, or should be, as polarised as that. I think some proponents on both ‘sides’ can make it so, by taking various assertions to their logical end-point, but I don’t think that’s always necessary or constructive.

So, I think ‘lesbian’ has a well-understood meaning as ‘a woman who exclusively/primarily has relationships with other women’, and the reality is that some (many) of those lesbians will have only ever had relationships with AFAB women, some will have had periods in their lives when they had relationships with men, some date AFAB women and trans men, some date AFAB women and trans women, yada yada. That is my lived social experience for 15 years, so it’s anecdata but it’s fairly extensive, intensive, sustained anecdata. Only a tiny handful of women get caught up in whether ‘gold star’ lesbians are better for never having had a male sexual partner, or whether lesbians who have a one-off exceptional relationship with a man (or lesbians who have relationships with trans women, trans men, etc) should relinquish their lesbian membership card, and in general they get short shrift when they try it. Having a bit of space to let people use the label that works for them and recognising it’s unkind to interrogate that, has not so far led to ‘lesbian’ falling out of perfectly useable currency to mean exactly what you and I think it means.
(And all of these women have all been located beneath the rainbow flag, outnumbered 3 to 1 by gay men, since time immemorial. And that’s before we even mention the bisexual women. This is part of why the idea that the rainbow flag is now becoming hostile because of a trans takeover surprises me and does not accord with my own experience, because it doesn’t really feel like much has changed, and while I have ambivalence around it - plus frustration with the corporate rainbow-washing involved, and the ever-increasing political sell-out of Pride and so on - it also remains a comforting corner where we are more welcome than we often are in the rest of the world. I get that lesbians and bi women will have a wide variety of complex feelings around the rainbow flag, but I’m very concerned by what sometimes seems like a growing hetero backlash against it.)

So on a day to day, not arguing with TRAs or GC-feminists on the internet, basis, I can refer perfectly adequately to my sexual orientation and people largely know what it means. And I don’t choose to go to Pride with a placard that says “lesbian = female homosexual” or whatever, because IMO that’s not so much about clarity and ensuring we are visible, as it is about gratuitously signalling (at best) my lack of interest in pursuing sexual relationships with trans women, or (worse) my prioritised hostility towards trans women.

I accept I’m not 17 and nor am I regularly in contact with 17yo lesbians any more. I fully believe there are some toxic narratives they are having to cope with, in a very real and frightening way. What I don’t believe is that these narratives have so completely taken hold, that we are in danger of the word ‘lesbian’ actually losing its socially understood meaning; or that it’s only possible for them to resist the call to either (a) transition to male themselves because being a boy is so much easier or (b) accept AMAB sexual partners, if we support them to loudly proclaim a trans-exclusionary position. I think we can, and should, support them to define their own sexual boundaries, their own identities (in the widest possible sense, ie. a sense of self, rather than an ‘official gender identity’ notion), and to say no. (And meanwhile also teach young people to hear that ‘no’ and respond accordingly.)

I think that centring trans people, and trans issues, in the lesbian experience does both groups a disservice.

(Full disclosure - I do think that there are some questions posed by the rapidly-growing acceptance of trans identities that are far more difficult to resolve - prisons, refuges, puberty blockers - but this cotton ceiling thing I think we can and should be resisting without having to rely on ‘trans women are not women’ as a necessary condition.)

God it’s a shame we don’t know each other. My niece is a beautiful, cool kick-ass firefighter.

She sounds perfect!

Funnily enough, Lucy Masoud would be one of my first choice lesbian aunties, realise she isn’t a firefighter any more but she’s pretty ideal (and now a barrister!)

In real life, I expect I will just wait another 6 months or so for my good local chum to get past the new-baby days. Not fair to ask a favour of her right now.

It’s a shame DsD isn’t much interested in sport because there are some very inspiring lesbian sportswomen (and stepmum pointing that out is beyond embarrassing).

I know that some of the current lack of lesbian role models in the public eye is just due to maths lesbians being a relatively small percentage of woman (and bi women in long term same sex relationships also being relatively few in number) but I wish there were a few more, especially in a more relatable age bracket to my DD. This fantastic interview with Elly Jackson of La Roux helps me understand why though, what young lesbian would want their emerging sexual orientation to be the subject of public scrutiny?

Anyway, I digressed. Sorry to hijack the rainbow flag chat, I just got a bit carried away at the opportunity to understand how to help my DsD a little better - I just want her to grow up to be a healthy, happy human, and same sex attraction is the one part of that I cannot help with by sharing my own experiences.
It’s particularly difficult because school and peers are pushing in the ‘transition and be a straight boy’ direction, which to her seems like a great escape route from lesbophobic bullying (for starters, it gets her out of the girls changing room and into the disabled toilet for PE changing) - no one seems capable of seeing the bigger picture, that being a transman isn’t exactly easy either (in part because YouTube is absolutely filled with young, cool, transman role models).

As a previous poster mentioned upthread, young lesbians seem to be at the very bottom of the rainbow social hierarchy.

Did I mention said niece is married to her wife? Ticks a few diversity boxes (god it sounds like a science experiment!). She is also a very good sports woman.

that it’s only possible for them to resist the call to either (a) transition to male themselves because being a boy is so much easier or (b) accept AMAB sexual partners,

Thank you for posting, I’m trying to get as much insight as possible.
One thing though, don’t underestimate the difficulty of young minds to unpick this part. One of the detransitioned young lesbian women who spoke at the Make More Noise event assumed she couldn’t possibly even be a lesbian, because TransWomen Are Women’ and she knew damn well she didn’t fancy transwomen.
Many of these girls are on the autistic spectrum, which can make it even harder to figure out all the social signifiers and language that relate to human sexual interaction and orientation.

I also read somewhere (please correct me of I’m wrong, I’m just book learning) that on average young gay men often have an earlier, clearer understanding of their orientation than young lesbians do? Although my DsD thought she might be bi at 12 and decided actually, girls only, a year later. I realise this could change again though, I don’t want to pigeon hole her.

I think that centring trans people, and trans issues, in the lesbian experience does both groups a disservice.

Yes exactly. And this centring is not coming from trans people themselves but concerned women who keep insisting that female lesbians are under attack from the trans lobby.

As I said earlier the concern is coming from a good place, but it isn't necessarily helpful to young lesbians to try and convince them to fight with TRAs. They shouldn't feel the need to hold up placards at Pride stating 'lesbian = female homosexual' It feels like young lesbians are being used as pawns in the battle between GC feminists and TRAs and that's not fair.

The only time I've heard of the cotton ceiling and lesbians facing pressure to sleep with trans women is on here, and yes I know plenty of younger lesbians. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just not to the extent that is claimed on here.

Saying that there are many things that are different from when I was younger, particularly women who would previously have been butch lesbians identifying as non-binary. I don't really see anything sinister in that though.

And so the flag was removed by a little weasel. Some man complained. What a surprise.

I also read somewhere (please correct me of I’m wrong, I’m just book learning) that on average young gay men often have an earlier, clearer understanding of their orientation than young lesbians do? Although my DsD thought she might be bi at 12 and decided actually, girls only, a year later. I realise this could change again though, I don’t want to pigeon hole her.

I haven’t read that (or anything contradicting it), but it certainly sounds plausible. I went through a similar pattern to your DSD by the sounds of it, thought I was probably bi at about 12/13 and after a year or so realised that actually lesbian was probably a much better fit. (Now I look back at my younger childhood and think oh yeah, there were indications all over the place - but from this perspective, who knows what’s really sexual orientation related vs what’s just coincidence but I incorporate it into that narrative?)

It’s a really important point on the challenges of asking young people, perhaps especially the over-represented young people on the autistic spectrum, to grasp quite a nuanced message on a topic there are so many unsubtle shouty slogans about. I think we do have to try though - I don’t think it’s accurate, kind or fair (to young lesbians or young trans folk) to opt instead for “lesbians are never interested in penis” or “boys can never become girls” just because it’s simpler.

@SapphosRock my phone is messing about and won’t let me C&P your paragraph about ‘butch flight’. I’ve gone back and forth on this one a few times (is it sad, and reductive, that these young people think women must be more womanly than that, and that ‘butch’ has to exist as some state between male and female?), but mostly I’ve concluded that it’s probably a slight shift of language more than anything else, and a really slight one at that - looking at how so many women have played around over the years with identifying as ‘boi’ and so on. You see that kind of playing around at the boundary of gender going way back into lesbian history, for reasons often lost to the mists of time; I guess it would be interesting to know what % of AFAB non-binary people still record themselves as female for data collection purposes, and see how that compares to past generations, because perhaps there is a qualitative shift, but my suspicion is that it’s largely semantics.

“lesbian = female homosexual” or whatever, because IMO that’s not so much about clarity and ensuring we are visible, as it is about gratuitously signalling (at best) my lack of interest in pursuing sexual relationships with trans women, or (worse) my prioritised hostility towards trans women

I still don't really even know how to respond to this.

Why is the dictionary definition transphobic? How is it not just a statement of fact? What should be so controversial about it? Is wearing it something worth kicking lesbians out of a pub for?

I have no care whatsoever about an individual lesbian's sexual history and I'm not interested in any arguments about those who've slept with men versus those who haven't. It doesn't matter at all to me.

My concern is that we retain a word, a definable concept, for the only sexual orientation that specifically excludes penises.

Perhaps that sounds stupid, or trite, or "everyone knows what you mean" (similar to the endless debates when people try to redefine the word "woman," which really only works because we all already know what the features of the factual category being identified-into are, certainly men do when it comes to pornography, but it doesn't make the central conceit any less worrying).

If you think I am being alarmist or a pedant about language, then that is your right.

I'm just explaining what I am seeing and feeling, from my specific vantage point, and you really don't have to agree with my interpretation.

But if you think that lesbians can't display the dictionary definition of what we are at Pride, due to fear of offending trans people to a greater or lesser degree, then I'm afraid that I'll interpret that sentiment as you centering/protecting the feelings of those born male instead of lesbians, rather than the other way around.

ReinstateLangCleg Lesbians shouldn't feel they have to display the dictionary definition of what we are at Pride.

As NellWilsonsWhiteHair points out, we know who we are. The general public knows who we are. There really isn't a danger of the word lesbian being hijacked by trans people, whatever people might claim on here.

Why should women feel obliged to make political statements at Pride? Most of us just want to go and enjoy ourselves and celebrate along with our LGBT+ friends and allies. We don't want to go and pick fights with TRAs.

Lesbians shouldn't feel they have to display the dictionary definition of who they are at Pride, but they do, and I trust lesbians.

Lesbians shouldn't feel they have to display the dictionary definition of who they are at Pride, but they do, and I trust lesbians.

No, about 0.01% of lesbians at Pride do, the rest of us are too busy enjoying ourselves.

the rest of us are too busy enjoying ourselves....

...to have any empathy with the concerns of others.

I find it hard to understand how someone who says they’re a lesbian can just stand idly by “enjoying themselves” while other lesbians are abused for stating something as straightforward as a definition of their attraction. Why don’t you care that these women were abused?

@NotBadConsidering

The funny thing about lesbians is they are autonomous humans beings with a wide range of thoughts and opinions that often differ from other lesbians' thoughts and opinions.

Some lesbians think Pride is a great opportunity to make it clear they would never sleep with trans women and label trans women as abusers.

Some lesbians think Pride is a great opportunity to show they are trans allies (see attached).

And some lesbians just want to enjoy the day without being manipulated by people into joining either side.

Can you not see that saying lesbians have an obligation to stand up to trans women is another form of trying to control us? It makes me really angry that young women are being guilt tripped like this.

Why is the dictionary definition transphobic? How is it not just a statement of fact?

The dictionary definition, when found in the dictionary under L, is indeed a statement of fact. The dictionary definition, when held up on a placard during a period when some (mostly) lesbians believe their rights are under threat by developments in trans politics, is surely a statement of allegiance.

I don’t centre trans issues in my lesbianism, either as a rival or an ally.

Can you not see that saying lesbians have an obligation to stand up to trans women is another form of trying to control us?

I never said you have an “obligation to stand up to trans women”. I’m talking about here and now. You don’t seem to care, after the fact, in your comments and replies, that women were abused. Even if you don’t agree with women protesting, even if you wouldn’t personally protest, even if you wouldn’t dare yourself you say the dictionary definition of lesbian out loud, you show no empathy or support for those that did and were abused for it. Instead you’re all about how “it’s not really an issue, it’s not actually happening, it’s not something I worry about personally so I don’t see why anyone else does”.

Empathy Sapphos, it’s called empathy. It’s another dictionary definition you should look up.

NotBadConsidering assume you are full of empathy for people who spend their lives feeling trapped in the wrong body?

Or does empathy only apply in certain circumstances?

NotBadConsidering assume you are full of empathy for people who spend their lives feeling trapped in the wrong body?

Yeah, I thought that too on reading that sentence....

Yes, I have significant empathy for people who have distress about their bodies. I do not believe it to be the “wrong body” but I empathise with their distress about it and I can understand why they themselves think it’s wrong. What’s your point?

Poster after poster on these boards have said they empathise with those who believe they have been born in the wrong body or feel their innate gender is different to their sex

It sounds similar to disassociation which again posters empathise with

I know that some people...present company excepted....don’t believe that. But its true for many on FWR

I’m a lesbian, I love the rainbow flag, I’ve certainly never been made to feel that as a lesbian I have to have sex with men who identify as women otherwise I’m transphobic. From what I can see the people saying this are an extremely small vocal minority of LGBT, who most of us see as bonkers. Everyone I meet appears to understand when I tell them I’m a lesbian that I’m only attracted to men, so I do not feel the need to made political statements at pride about trans women. I have no issue with trans women as a whole, I have an issue with a small minority of vocal trans activists definitely.

I attend pride to have fun and to be around gay people like myself, not to make inflammatory statements and offend people. If other people wish to do that that’s their choice, but please don’t try and guilt lesbians into turning pride into some political rally against trans people.

Elsie are you suggesting that stating homosexual = same sex attraction is ‘against transpeople’. Why is that?

Do you also feel that ‘women’s rights’ are transphobic?

who most of us see as bonkers

My boy has said that he has been told genital preference is transphobic

He just tells them to get knotted...he certainly isnt bonkers

not to make inflammatory statements and offend people

You see that’s what’s bonkers: women stating the definition of lesbian and same sex attraction are considered inflammatory statements that offend people.