What do you think about the rainbow flag?

[DJLippy]

Does anyone else get a shudder when they see a rainbow flag outside a venue? Harry the Owl compared it to a Nazi flag and I'm inclined to agree.

I'm Bisexual so I should be thrilled to find all these inclusive spaces but I just feel a stab of anxiety and make a mental note to steer well clear. It's a real physiological reaction not something I can control.

A few years ago I used to love seeing the pride flag outside bars. I guess back then it actually meant something. Now I feel like it's actually a sign of exclusion - that anyone who doesn't believe that twaw is not safe there.

Also it does kind of imply that all the other venues are a threat to the LGBTQI++ people. I actually get a lot less grief being with a woman in a normie bar than I would in a gay bar. What's more its often just random cafes and shops which as far as I am aware have no gay history. Just feels like a cheap virtue signal by straight woke folk.

I'd be interested in hearing from people who are same sex attracted. Do you feel that the flag which used to represent your community been appropriated by male supremacists? Do you self exclude from spaces which fly the rainbow flag?

Argh bold fail^^

Plus - who says the mothers of teenage lesbians are heterosexual?

I’m not.

And if you can’t see the difference between the usual growing up and boundary setting experiences that all woman whatever their sexuality go through with being actively group bullied and accused of transphobia because your same sex attraction is not respected let alone protected - I despair.

My youth - male hits on you, I’m a lesbian led to pestering, lesbophobia, vile comments. Clear victim and aggressor.

My daughters youth - male hits on her, I’m a lesbian, person identifies as a woman, she is still a lesbian and the exclusionary phobic aggressor.

OverMy I acknowledged your DD must be having a shit time and tried to provide some constructive advice on how she could deal with it. If you disagree that's fine, no need to be rude about it.

I think there is a general concern from older heterosexual women about the plight of young lesbians, I wasn't referring to your DD in particular.

It's also not like the politics associated with the rainbow flag only affects a small segment of the population. I work in a primary school and education more generally, so I go to work and see things like Rainbow clubs for kids who haven't yet hit puberty, or programs and speakers with rainbow flags stamped on them, and at best I wonder what kind of crap they are going to be telling the children, and at worst I know they are giving them inappropriate material, not to mention they are basically indoctrinating the kids in a perspective that some of the parents won't be comfortable with and I don't think that is going to have good outcomes in the medium term or long term.

I don’t think we should restrict who we’re allowed to be concerned about based on our own sexualities, I find that quite short-sighted. We can all be concerned about things that have not or will not directly affect us.

I have also experienced behaviour that was essentially sexual assault from other women in club/scene environments that was seen as acceptable/amusing by the crowd there as it was female-on-female (or at least a lot less of an issue than male-on-female). It’s definitely a ‘thing’ - I’m not sure what it has to do with the gender ideology hijacking of LGB & the rainbow flag though.

Cwenthryth It's okay to acknowledge there is a dark side to LGBT culture. It's not all rainbow cocktails and Pride festivals.

As you say same sex attracted women can be predatory to other women.

In terms of young lesbians I think a disproportionate amount of blame for their problems is given to the trans lobby.

It's really up to each individual to square their feelings about the rainbow flag with the dark side of LGBT culture.

I don't agree that it is the place of heterosexual women to encourage young lesbians to reject the rainbow flag - it's just another form of control.

Sappho, you realise that a lot of us here who now feel threatened by the rainbow flag are lesbians? And OverMy has stated that she’s not heterosexual.

And before you say contact school - it’s all over the LGBT youth guidelines which agree with it being transphobic.

I’m afraid I didn’t quite follow what this meant. Are you saying that “lesbians must be open to dating trans girls” is part of some sort of inclusion code the school adheres to? If so - I would absolutely be challenging that, yes. I would be expecting the school to be clear that everyone gets to define their own boundaries re: who they are interested in pursuing relationships with, and also I would expect the school to become involved in one student aggressively pursuing another by not taking ‘no’ for an answer, regardless of the sexual orientation, sex, and gender identity of those involved.

I am really sad, and angry, that your daughter is having to go through this, but at the same time I don’t think it’s an indictment of the rainbow flag, and of how increasing (still minority) trans acceptance is always trampling over the rights of lesbians. There is no inevitable tension here, all that is required is that the trans girl’s gender identity is respected (we refer to her using appropriate pronouns and so on), and that your daughter’s right to choose her own partners based on her own criteria is respected. I don’t mean it’s easy or that there won’t be people who will shout that its transphobic; I do think it’s worth remembering that in the wider world, transphobia and homophobia often emanate from the same sources, which is a large part of the reason for a historic connection between LGB/T identities, surely.

encourage young lesbians to reject the rainbow flag

Who is doing that?

Gah, no one is encouraging rejection of the rainbow flag.... we’re saying we feel it’s being hijacked and no longer means what it used to mean to us. Simples :-). YMMV, obvs.

I think we’re all very open to acknowledging a ‘dark side’ to ‘LGBT culture’ given what we’re talking about here .

If you understand that female-on-female predation can go comparatively unchecked in LGBT circles and agree that this is a ‘dark side’, maybe join up a few more dots about how incorporating ‘TWAW’ into that environment might play out.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER the whole 'Get the L out' didn't sit well with me at all. Fine to have your own feelings, preferences and boundaries and if that means removing yourself from LGBT culture and rejecting the rainbow flag then so be it.

These women claimed to be speaking for all lesbians and that we all want the L to be separate from the GBG which felt unsettling and controlling.

But get the L out ARE lesbians?

I don't agree that it is the place of heterosexual women to encourage young lesbians to reject the rainbow flag - it's just another form of control.

No one expects all lesbians to agree on everything, but you can’t reasonably mistake the women of ‘Get the L out’ for heterosexual women!

From outside the WPUK Brighton meeting ‘Lesbian Not Queer’

Fair point, happy to amend what I said.

I don't agree that it is the place of heterosexual women anyone regardless of sexuality to encourage young lesbians to reject the rainbow flag.

Interesting the picture you shared showed the majority of TRA protesters have the trans flag not the rainbow flag.

That was anti WPUK, pro trans protest though, not pride.

Brighton has a separate Trans Pride.

The main pride event has hardly any trans presence at all.

Yeah, it’s weird that T wants to organise separate stuff, but doesn’t seem to like it when LGB wants to do the same!

Up here we have the long established Sparkle, which predates the T becoming part of the acronym by quite some time... but I suspect the organisers/average crowd are quite different to trans Pride in Brighton!

DuLANGMondeFOREVER

Yes with that I agree with you. My DW works for an organisation that has a trans support group and a women's support group. Obviously trans women are welcome to attend either meaning there is no group just for women. It's annoying.

Unfortunately this is the result of the TWAW mantra!
This is not my area (for I am a heterosexual woman, at least by the old standards!) but it seems a shame that (and I’m only using this word because it’s in use in most current LGBT orgs) ‘cis’ lesbians (or WLW) and ‘cis’ gay men (or MLM) cannot have some support groups of their own (as well as providing mixed groups and groups specifically for trans people and groups for younger LGBT people etc)
After all, we know that there are some unique areas that disproportionately affect L or G people (especially in physical health matters) and it would be useful to be able to discuss stuff like that with others who are experiencing the same thing.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER I'm sorry that your daughter is also facing such harassment.

I don't really understand how the argument "women can push boundaries, too" is relevant in this context, though I am of course always sad to hear about other women's negative experiences no matter who perpetrated them. I don't think lesbians are any better or worse than other women. It is fair to say that boundary-setting and assertiveness tools are necessary and healthy for all women, whatever their sexual orientation.

To my mind it's still an obfuscation of the central difficulty.

If lesbians cannot exist as a distinct, separate category (females who love only other females*), and if we use our voices then we mustn't raise them above a whisper if we state our sexual orientation is based on biological sex - so as not to offend - what are we really saying?

My problem is that the spaces marked as being "for lesbians" today don't actually seem to care about us very much. So while I appreciate that lesbians ought not be co-opted into a broader narrative and that we must be mindful of projection, I'm quite glad if some older heterosexual feminist women are saying "hang on a minute, why is 'hairy dyke' still acceptable to shout as an insult at girls at my daughter's school... and why does some of the rhetoric academics like Alex Sharpe spout about sexual boundaries sound SO disturbing?" There's a difference between being remarking on what women are observing and imposing control. Arguably, some lesbians saying that other lesbians shouldn't "rock the boat" when it comes to voicing our concerns about what is going on could be construed as another form of attempted manipulation.

I think the rainbow flag-wavers are doing a good-enough job of alienating lesbians all on their own, frankly. I'm a little concerned by the suggestion that those of us who are disaffected by the LGBTQ+ crew and the rainbow are doing so not from thinking things through with our own minds or based on our own experiences, but because older straight women have told us something. I'm far more disturbed by being protested by members of my own "inclusive community" when we want to celebrate lesbians as lesbians, women as women. Why should the Lesbian Strength March and Rally in Leeds in 2019, for example, have been considered SO controversial if we really are allowed to assert ourselves freely, no questions asked?

(*Here of course two females-who-identify-as-men-or-nonbinary would fit the standard definition of female homosexuals, too.)

DuLANGMondeFOREVER yes exactly. I suggested this to DW - that it's fair and right for trans women to want and need a group to discuss issues with other TW and similarly women have certain things they may only want to discuss with other women.

Apparently if women feel like that about excluding TW then it's not the right group for them! So I do agree there are fewer spaces for women as a result of the TWAW mantra.

(Me and DW can no longer discuss this issue as we fall out - she is very much TWAW).

It’s a shame. Pretty certain transwomen wouldn’t want a women’s support group to be discussing access to IVF for women in same sex relationships (to use an example from the thread). So where DO Lesbians get to meet, talk, support and organise on that kind of issue?

Are support groups billed as ‘AFAB’ an option? Or is that deemed transphobic/triggering for trans men?

I feel like (as an outsider with a vested interest due to DsD) support for same-sex attracted female people is falling, yet the actual problems of discrimination are yet to be properly resolved.

I think I also feel acutely aware that me and DH cannot model a happy family life for her in the same way we can for heterosexual kids (which our eldest is and our youngest is yet to be determined!)

I can tell her over and over again that it’s ok to be attracted to women, that a happy life is possible, but I can’t demonstrate it, so it’s a bit hollow.

I do have lesbian friends but the one really local couple just had a baby and the others are London/Brighton so I can’t arrange any random bumping-into-them-with-DsD-in-tow-lets-get-coffee events..

I could potentially take her to the women’s events (where I have met some of the get the L out women) but by teenage standards they are a bit terfy and she’s still very young for political womens events, which tend to veer into domestic violence and anti prostitution talk.

I need to magic up a cool Lesbian auntie figure from somewhere.

It’s the sad reality for most gay kids, getting saddled with ‘boring cishet’ parents!