12 year old daughter saying she thinks she's male

[controversialquestion]

Hi
Posted this in behaviour and development and got no response. Would really appreciate some advice about who to put DD in contact with for some advice.
Would very much welcome some advice. My 12 year old daughter has appeared perfectly happy (albeit quite quirky) until she started secondary school this year. On the surface she still appears happy - has a good group of friends and social life, and is doing well academically. However, she has been increasingly saying she is self-conscious, and some weeks ago self harmed several times - we have got her some support through both the GP and school. It looked like things were settling down and she had a good half term. However she came to see me yesterday and said she thought she was actually male. She had had a period of about 6 months around 2 years ago where she would only wear boys clothes (and said she had asked friends to call her a boys name but they wouldn't) but since then she has had a number of phases, including some quite girly ones.
I had a long chat with her and told her I didn't think people could be in the wrong body - it was much more about how they perceived themselved etc. and pressures from society. We talked a lot about how you could live your life as you pleased (within reason) as a woman, and didn't need to conform to any gender norm or sexuality while still remaining a woman. She agreed, but said she felt she would feel more comfortable and less self concious with a male body or liviing as a male. She had quite early puberty and has a clearly female shape already.
We kind of left it there with the channels of communication left open, but I would welcome any advice. I certainly do not want her going down the trans route but have made it clear that I have no problem regarding whatever her sexuality may be or how she chooses to present herself / dress etc. Are there any groups that she could talk to that wouldn't encourage her to consider herself trans? I'm really struggling to be both supportive while not wishing to support the idea that she is indeed a male and could / should live like this. Obviously it may all go away in the next few weeks as she's only 12, but even if it does I think it's important she feels listened to and there's obviously something going on with her that requires support. I'm also concerned that if she talks to her counsellor at school that they will refer her to Mermaids or something similar, so feel I need to have identified another support organisation that I can encourage her to contact that won't support this stance.

I can’t find the book because I borrowed it but this explains the brain development quite well

www.scarymommy.com/puberty-brain-changes/

www.oxfordsparks.ox.ac.uk/content/brain-development-teenagers

I think we need clarification on the '3 deletions in 6 weeks and you are banned' rule.

When I was in year 7 I remember my mum being shocked when I blurted out that I didn’t want to be a woman.

In my mind it was all too much. I was referring to growing up. It is a difficult transition from primary school where you would run round at playtime and everything seemed fun, to secondary school (I went to a girls school) where we were expected to act like little women.

There’s so much pressure from peers, media, adults etc to look and act a certain way and it can feel difficult to keep up with it all and just want the care free life back!

OP the tra's on Twitter have picked up on this thread so careful of the people talking about suicide.

Children and young people who self identify as Trans are highly likely to self harm or committ suicide. You are unlikely to know this is coming

As a mother who has had to live through the worry of potential suicide in two of my children, I find this totally irresponsible thing to post.

None of the official statisitcs from experts in the field support this sort of approach and neither do experts in the field of suicide.

I know what it is to be scared stiff to knock on my child's door in the morning and never needed this sort of hectoring to realise this.

I am shocked that MN want to leave it standing.

OP - you love your child, your child loves you. You will come through this. xx

Wonder who flagged it 🤔

Part 2 'The Trans Train' Sweedish documentary about medicalising young women's distress & impact of children & vulnerable adults being identifed as transgender. (discusses the dangerous & irresponsible misuse of suicide statistics by politicians & lobbyists)

www.svtplay.se/video/24853942/uppdrag-granskning/uppdrag-granskning-sasong-20-the-trans-train-part-2?start=auto

None of the official statisitcs from experts in the field support this sort of approach and neither do experts in the field of suicide.

I know what it is to be scared stiff to knock on my child's door in the morning and never needed this sort of hectoring to realise this.

I am shocked that MN want to leave it standing.

Melroses

It is shocking
Many of us who have been impacted by suicide/suicide ideation are surprised by @MNHQ decision to leave this irresponsible & incorrect post up.

OP - you love your child, your child loves you. You will come through this. xx

This ^^

Thanks all. Communication still very much open between me and dd. Rather shocked at seeing thread on twitter.

Ignore them. They are projecting their fantasy childhoods onto our children. They know absolutely diddly squat about growing up female.

controversial unfortunately some people prefer to play ideological games with our gender-questioning children, rather than provide actual support to parents.

But mothers here know what's what - I won't share my actual experiences here any more, due to concerns about targeted reporting, but I will say that two of my adolescent children had a GD diagnosis, and our family has experienced both suicidal ideation and hospitalisation for one of our then-kids. Unlike some, I don't talk out of my a*se, excuse the language.

Parents will generally do what they think is best for their child. What does concern me a bit is that some seem to advocate finding a therapist who will talk about everything but the gender issue. Whilst I think it is sensible to explore all options, personal experience suggests that gender clinics are as much about finding out what you are not as much as what you you are. They generally still see being diagnosed with GD as the non desirable outcome. In any event a referral to the Tavistock tomorrow (and that relies on a friendly GP)would result in around a 27 month wait for an appointment, hardly something i could honestly call a rush. I appreciate my opinion here is likely to be in the minority.

I ask myself if a child presented with any other medical condition would people advocate a treatment pathway that ignores their presenting symptoms to look at every other possibility without any clear clinical evidence to do so? In an admittedly extreme case imagine seeking a Dr due to chest pain and saying I want you to do investigations but no ECG or blood test for troponin levels because I may not want to hear the answer.

The only reason we suggest finding a therapist to talk about everything but gender is because once gender comes up, affirmation becomes the only option, because anything else is perceived as conversion therapy.

www.psychotherapy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/UKCP-Memorandum-of-Understanding-on-Conversion-Therapy-in-the-UK.pdf

I would love for my DsD to be able to talk openly and in-depth about gender with qualified professional, but she’s already getting trans affirmation from peers and school, internet and CBBC.

I’ve spoken to former Tavistock employees at the detransitioners event, none of them think the Tavi is properly able to deal with the new, female adolescent presentation of gender dysphoria. The service was designed for the handful of kids that have been insistent and persistent since preprimary school (many of whom desist at puberty) not for girls who become dysphoric at the mid point of puberty, when periods have begun and breasts become visible.

Exploring this new presentation is impossible in the political climate.

Given that the Tavistock is now under judicial review because of the shonky nonsense involved, I think finding a therapist to deal with any and all underlying MH issues is a very grounded path until such time as the GIDS stops being subject to influence of ideologists who believe propaganda to justify medical experiments on kids.

And yeah, you're probably correct that your view that these are kids presenting with a 'medical issue' will probably not receive a warm reception. These are kids with a mental health issue, for which body modification and stunting growth is a bloody ridiculous 'treatment', so I applaud any parent who wishes to avoid a therapist who is invested in that kind of quackery

I ask myself if a child presented with any other medical condition

One of my other kids is a paediatric oncology patient. Her consultant literally wrote the textbook that is used to train medical students in the UK and pops up on the BBC every few months to explain the latest breakthroughs. He’s written countless papers and been referenced in thousands. He’s always looking for new approaches, I trust him implicitly. He unquestionably saves lives.

The two worlds are completely different, parents are constantly raising money for research into better diagnostics and gentler treatments. Parents found charities to provide comforts while children are enduring the horrors of drugs designed to treat adults, we aren’t going on telly advocating for those adult drugs to be given to younger and younger children, we know there is no such thing as ‘harmless pause’ every drug has side effects.

There are no political lobbying groups for cancer kids, no activists pressuring doctors, patients on paediatric oncology do not arrive with a script from a charity that believes it knows better than the clinicians.

There is enormous openness between doctors, children are referred all over the country to be treated by the absolute experts in their own condition, and most tellingly, no matter their age, preservation of future fertility is discussed and planned for.

I know a 6 month old baby girl who has had ovarian tissues stored, so that should she want to be a mother someday, there will be hope. Yet clinicians caring for gender distressed children put them on drugs designed for prostate cancer without any attempt to preserve fertility at all, and we know those who go on to cross sex hormones, ie, all of them, will be rendered sterile.

Diagnosing my daughter’s condition took countless blood tests, a chest x ray, a brain scan, an MRI and a bone marrow biopsy.

But Mermaids say my stepdaughter is trans if she says she’s trans, and GIDS are too institutionally cowardly to stand up to such nonsense.

It’s because I have experience of a child with an ‘other medical condition’ that I am so skeptical of GIDS. They aren’t operating to the same standards as other paediatric medical departments.

Gender distressed kids deserve better.

... and periods embarrassing and very inconvenient...

I’m 41 and confirm periods are inconvenient. I very doubt much anybody thinks ‘yeah, it’s that time of the month!’ but this doesn’t mean they want to be male.

Puberty’s so crap, particularly when you develop earlier than your friends. The Trans fashion seems to be the latest scary way some children deal with it - so worrying.

Love the advice to get out and make the most of her healthy body by taking long walks etc and to keep talking. Lots of luck, she’s very lucky to have you.

Puberty can be some scary shit. I well remember hating it, wearing huge clothes, and stating that I wanted to be a boy, like George from Famous Five! For two years or so. Cut hair short etc. Didn’t help that was tall and became busty. School etc just ignored it. Some friends were .

Dulang

I wouldn't go as far to say affirmation is the only option but, I can see why you would say that as the treatment models of the US and UK often become blurred in these discussions. That most referrals desist prior to a diagnosis doesn't seem to support that either.

I suspect it highly unlikely that the OP's daughter does have a GD, after all the incidence of GD amongst the general population is tiny and even smaller when we consider under 18 presentations to a medical professional. It could be anything from distress at bodily changes, confusion over same sex attraction or in a tiny minority of cases GD. That said, for the tiny minority that are dysphoriac it's very distressing and the onset of puberty often exacerbates that distress.

Taking a holistic approach and looking at all sorts of potential issues is only sensible in a case like this but, I would think ignoring the presenting complaint is not something that you would find many medical professionals willing to do.

Of course, it would help if there were a physiological diagnostic test for GD for example, the discovery of a particular strand of DNA was found to code for there being a higher likelihood for its development. But, for now, it's a condition that seems to originate in the mind and I'm afraid in the eyes of the medical establishment that doesn't make it any less worthy of treatment and investigation because of the obvious interactions between the mind and the body.

@DuLANGMondeFOREVER what an amazingly insightful and thoughtful post.

I would think ignoring the presenting complaint is not something that you would find many medical professionals willing to do.

But why is it treated as a ‘presenting complaint’ when it’s statistically so much more likely to be symptom of something else? Especially in the new adolescent presentation described as ROGD?

Because politics. And ‘conversion therapy’.

And adult transitioners don’t actually want trans to be a condition diagnosed by brain scan or genetic testing, because they don’t want their identity to be invalidated by a negative test result. What they want is no ‘gatekeepy’ diagnostics at all, just ‘informed consent’ and/or the ability to buy hormones over the counter.

Thank you, Iggypoppie. With one oncology kid, one autistic kid and one kid who desperately wants to be the opposite sex, I have plenty of opportunities to compare and contrast different aspects of paediatric healthcare!

Interestingly, I have come across a number of incidents of gender distress/a new trans identity coinciding with the serious illness of another family member or following a bereavement, in both adolescents and adults. All anecdotal of course, and unlikely to ever be properly explored due to the politics, although the significantly higher incidence of gender dysphoria in looked after and adopted children points towards the possibility that at least some GD is likely to be a maladaptive response to trauma.

Psychiatrists don't ignore the presenting complaint, but some of them understand that the presenting complaint is not always the underlying issue.

I would not continue to use the psychiatrist we use for my child with GD if they only focused on the GD and did not look at the trauma prior to the sudden onset of GD, and the presence of co-morbid anxiety and depression.

A HCP who only looked at the GD - the low-hanging fruit of psychiatric diagnosis - would be treating in an incompetent manner.

Contrary to popular belief, and as evidenced by the growing number of detransitioners, focusing only on GD presentation is NOT best practice, and can result in transition regret. A practitioner with the medium to long term best interests of their patient in mind will note the GD symptoms, their onset, social factors involved in onset and make a diagnosis if warranted, but will not begin and end treatment with affirmation of a cross-sex identity.

Of the trans kids we know best, one transitioned after her father’s stroke and the other after her father’s heart attack, Du Lang.

Oh gosh, DoDo that’s heartbreaking.

I’m hearing loads of stories like this. I feel a bit paralysed as to what do with these connections. I vaguely remember Ken Zucker describing a post trauma paediatric transition in the controversial CBC documentary, but IIRC it was a very, very traumatic situation.
I think I will try and find it for a rewatch and then maybe contact some of the people who are at least trying to understand some of this stuff, Lisa Littman and Marcus Evans perhaps. They probably get tons of hate mail, so I might end up stuck in a junk filter. Worth a try.

Just putting this down for the lurkers/true trans believers getting directed this way:

Comprehensive article by Marcus Evans, former governor of the Tavistock:

quillette.com/2020/01/17/why-i-resigned-from-tavistock-trans-identified-children-need-therapy-not-just-affirmation-and-drugs/

Clinicians from the Tavistock publish concerns about girls presenting at the Tavistock via Women’s Place:
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/17/the-natal-female-question/amp/

Former Psychologist at the Leeds branch of GIDs, Kirsty Entwistle: medium.com/@kirstyentwistle/an-open-letter-to-dr-polly-carmichael-from-a-former-gids-clinician-53c541276b8d

Comment on the BMJ website by Susan Evans, who instigated the upcoming judicial review along with Keira Bell and a concerned mother of a gender distressed teenager, describing the failures of the research that GIDs are using to justify the use of off label adult cancer drugs for paediatric gender identity service patients:

www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l5647/rapid-responses
More about that application for judicial review (now granted, thankfully):
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/22/high-court-stop-nhs-giving-puberty-blockers-children

I cannot find Dr David Bell’s internal report, leaked to press. He spoke at the Detransitioners event in a personal capacity (he is still employed at the adult part of Tavistock).
I might have a go at a FOI request...

www.mercatornet.com/mobile/view/are-uk-experts-silencing-debate-on-trans-kids

35 GIDs clinicians quit in a 3 year period:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/12/12/childrens-transgender-clinic-hit-35-resignations-three-years/amp/

So when I say that GIDs is not operating at the same standard as other NHS paediatric provision, I’m not just making shit up. Even if a person is 100% on board with the concept of gender identity (which I am clearly not) they must surely conclude that GIDs is not offering an equal standard of care as that received by other children with chronic or acute medical or mental conditions.

Gender distressed kids deserve better than this.