12 year old daughter saying she thinks she's male

[controversialquestion]

Hi
Posted this in behaviour and development and got no response. Would really appreciate some advice about who to put DD in contact with for some advice.
Would very much welcome some advice. My 12 year old daughter has appeared perfectly happy (albeit quite quirky) until she started secondary school this year. On the surface she still appears happy - has a good group of friends and social life, and is doing well academically. However, she has been increasingly saying she is self-conscious, and some weeks ago self harmed several times - we have got her some support through both the GP and school. It looked like things were settling down and she had a good half term. However she came to see me yesterday and said she thought she was actually male. She had had a period of about 6 months around 2 years ago where she would only wear boys clothes (and said she had asked friends to call her a boys name but they wouldn't) but since then she has had a number of phases, including some quite girly ones.
I had a long chat with her and told her I didn't think people could be in the wrong body - it was much more about how they perceived themselved etc. and pressures from society. We talked a lot about how you could live your life as you pleased (within reason) as a woman, and didn't need to conform to any gender norm or sexuality while still remaining a woman. She agreed, but said she felt she would feel more comfortable and less self concious with a male body or liviing as a male. She had quite early puberty and has a clearly female shape already.
We kind of left it there with the channels of communication left open, but I would welcome any advice. I certainly do not want her going down the trans route but have made it clear that I have no problem regarding whatever her sexuality may be or how she chooses to present herself / dress etc. Are there any groups that she could talk to that wouldn't encourage her to consider herself trans? I'm really struggling to be both supportive while not wishing to support the idea that she is indeed a male and could / should live like this. Obviously it may all go away in the next few weeks as she's only 12, but even if it does I think it's important she feels listened to and there's obviously something going on with her that requires support. I'm also concerned that if she talks to her counsellor at school that they will refer her to Mermaids or something similar, so feel I need to have identified another support organisation that I can encourage her to contact that won't support this stance.

Is there any way you and your DD can get away for a period of time, somewhere away from her friends, internet? Are there any family volunteering holidays in developing countries that you could go to for six weeks over the summer?

Gender ideology is not big news in developing countries because people are too busy trying to put food on the table and get basic healthcare and education for their children, rather than having crises about their gender identity.

Could you try and get away, somewhere perhaps in Africa, where you could all volunteer at a school or similar? I've had a quick google and there appear to be projects that the whole family can get involved with: www.projects-abroad.co.uk/family-volunteering-holidays-abroad/

It may not be feasible, but perhaps a different cultural perspective may be a good way to break out of the identity crisis issues your daughter is facing?

an "article" that from a quick Google shows is another type of forum set up by a parent.
Sounds like opinion pieces, not exactly factual?

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis
There are a great number of 'opinion' pieces written by Mermaids (a support group founded by parents) which make false claims about child development, mental health & suicide risk/self harm.
I wonder if you take similar umbrage to those being shared?

The irresponsibility of these organisations repeatedly telling gender distressed adolescents that they have a 50/50 chance of attempting suicide is fucking outrageous, frankly.

It's bandied about like suicide is some sort of inspirational club only "real" transgender people get into. It's despicable.

I was writing from my own observation, Willis, that the trans-identifying teenagers I know had previously been obsessed with anime and manga.

I had no idea it had already been observed by others.

26th October 2020 WoLF article
'SUICIDE THREATS HAVE NO PLACE IN DEBATES ABOUT CHILD PROTECTION'
(extract)
"WoLF submitted testimony yesterday in support of a bill that would prohibit the use of “gender transition” surgeries and hormones. Idaho House Bill 465 prohibits actions that “circumcise, excise, infibulate, or mutilate the reproductive organs and parts of a child,” as well as “medications that induce profound morphologic changes in the genitals of a child or induce transient or permanent infertility.”

The removal of sex organs or sexual function has not been studied as a long-term treatment for severe depression, in spite of its permanent effects. Nonetheless, trans-activists demand that they be allowed to continue.

Opponents of the bill leaned heavily on the threat of suicide: they came to the podium and claimed, over and over, that children denied access to genital surgeries, puberty blockers, and cross-sex hormones would inevitably kill themselves. One woman told the state’s legislators that voting to prohibit the use of these practices on minors means “you’re a child murderer.” Several counselors and physicians operating in the state proudly claimed that they had “treated” many children’s suicidal depression by impairing or removing their sexual function.

Trans-activists are lying to and manipulating legislators into believing that children are likely to commit suicide if they are not given these poisonous hormones and life-altering surgeries.

One has to ask who benefits from all of this." (continues)
womensliberationfront.org/suicide-threats-have-no-place-in-debates-about-child-protection/

Jackie Doyle-Price MP (Thurrock)
"I share the concern that harm is being done to vulnerable children at a difficult time in their development. There should be no irreversible treatment before the age of majority"
twitter.com/JackieDP/status/1231187366204887040

These long waits for 'treatment' are not true
Few months in our case

Go and see your Dr and get on the CAMHS waiting list for counselling. At some stage you will have to include the school.

CAMHS & many schools have predominatly affirmation policies which will promote social transition & direct children to NHS Tavistock GIDS.

NHS Tavistock GIDs is being challenged at high levels (Parliament & judicial review) about the evidence base on which it relies & on failure to Safeguard & discharge Duty of Care.

Recent article by professionals who have worked within the NHS service published on WPUK:
The 'Natal Female' Question
(extract)
"We write this as experienced clinicians who have worked in the sole NHS clinic for children and adolescents presenting with distress around their gender identity and their sexed bodies. We have chosen to publish here, rather than a peer reviewed journal, to ensure greater reach than those journals achieve. Also, we publish here in solidarity with WPUK who are currently in the receipt of defamatory accusations of transphobia – accusations also levelled at us.

The exponential rise in adolescent natal females (teenage girls) presenting at gender identity services over the last few years has been well documented. This phenomenon was noted first amongst professionals working in the field and latterly has been picked up by the press and the public. Back in November 2019, for example, Newsnight and radio 4 covered this issue. During the programme “Going back: The people reversing their gender transition” (File on Four, Radio 4, Tuesday 26/11/19) Dr. Elizabeth Van Horn (Consultant Psychiatrist in The Gender Identity Clinic, The Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust), in response to the question about this explosion in referrals of natal females presenting at the Gender Identity Development Service calmly remarked we ‘do not know’ what might be driving this rise.

This gave a surprising impression of a lack of curiosity, insight and experience on the part of current clinicians. We suggest, in contrast, that many others working in this field have been asking themselves this very question for several years. They have generated hypotheses to account for this noteworthy and concerning phenomenon and refute the claim that it arises solely out of reduced stigma and increased access to services.

We posit that there are multiple, interweaving factors bearing down on girls and young women that have collided at this particular time causing a distress seemingly related to gender and their sex. These factors comprise both the external world (i.e. the social, political and cultural sphere) and the internal (i.e. the emotional, psychological and subjective). The external and internal interact and feed each other [1].

It is notable that even speaking about these observable, and clinically relevant, factors are seen by some as evidence of a form of anti-trans rhetoric. This deeply disturbs the clinicians whose professional lives are dedicated to understanding the source and meaning of human distress. It is from this place that we speak." (continues)

womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/17/the-natal-female-question/

Here’s the statement from GIDS re suicide risk (done in response to the Butterfy show on ITV). Is this “official” enough for the pp?

“ The first episode of the series includes an incident of self-harm. Tragically, there is a higher risk of self-harm and suicidal ideation or attempts found in LGBT communities compared to their cisgender or straight peers. Suicidality in young people attending the GIDS is similar to that of young people referred to child and adolescent mental health services. It is not helpful to suggest that suicidality is an inevitable part of this condition. Gender dysphoria is not a mental health condition in itself and we work hard with young people to ensure they can work out any issues they have around their gender identity while feeling supported. These might be internal issues around gender dysphoria, or external ones such as bullying or other adverse experiences they may have as a result of their gender identity. Our focus is on supporting young people to be resilient and positive and many of the young people we see are doing very well. It is important to note that it would be very unusual for younger children referred to the service to make suicidal attempts.

Increasing societal acceptance of gender diverse young people and decreasing gender-based prejudice may help prevent suicides. Suicide and suicide attempts are tragic and it is crucial to identify risk factors and develop interventions that address these. More positive narratives that reflect the evidence we have around risk are important.”

gids.nhs.uk/news-events/2018-10-15/our-response-full-itv-series-butterfly

These might be internal issues around gender dysphoria, or external ones such as bullying or other adverse experiences they may have as a result of their gender identity.

Its a shame that NHS GIDS dont also mention that many children using their service also have co-morbid mental health issues and/or additional unmet needs.

Wotcha getting deleted for, Willis?

I think creating a space for your daughter to talk her feelings and internal logic through with you is the way to go, OP. Sometimes trying to explain why you believe something can clarify your thinking, and given that she's 12 and this is all sudden her thinking could probably use a bit of clarifying. There will have been something that prompted this announcement, you just need to figure out what it is. Also agreed that if anime is a hobby of hers I'd take a closer look at what specifically she's into, cause there's a lot of very odd stuff mixed in with the more mainstream fare.

Good luck, you can do this and one positive rarely talked about is that when you do what you should do as a parent, you will have the closest relationship you ever dreamed of with your child because they will recognise you as a good person.

This is such an incredibly disturbing way to look at things, and so utterly lacking in understanding of how the parent/child relationship is meant to work.

Yes, R0wantrees I’m no fan of GIDS (and would not met my DD anywhere near them) and wish they would stop with the assumption that GD is a cause rather than a symptom.

rogdmum I do wonder how much harm is being done by the blanket term 'gender dysphoria' which obscures the cause/nature of distress/trauma which will be very different for individuals particularly where there are differences of age, sex & sexual orientation.

It must influence the thinking of the individual who is identified as trans but also will influence(limit?) the way medical practitioners & therapists respond.

Confirmation bias is a very powerful thing.

If you assume you've already diagnosed the issue then why look for other potential explanations? And thus anything else that may be going on is missed.

I agree. Whatever it is that has caused the dramatic increase in adolescent girls who identify as boys, it is clearly a completely different phenomenon to that of middle aged male transitioners.

Calling it all the same thing does everyone a disservice.

It also means that many patients (often children with their parents) have already located the 'diagnosis' and required treatment/s before they speak to a doctor or CAMHS.

Whatever it is that has caused the dramatic increase in adolescent girls who identify as boys, it is clearly a completely different phenomenon to that of middle aged male transitioners.

Calling it all the same thing does everyone a disservice.

Yes.

Its distress & frequently deep distress.
Surely all those who are subsequently identified as trans would have benefitted from more nuanced responses to the specific causes of their individual distess?

GD gets flung around so much when often I think it can mean just GNC with a bit of normal puberty discomfort- or one of 100 other things! I agree (as usual!) with R0wanstrees and would add that part of the problem is the long waiting times with organisations like Mermaids layered on top. It’s no wonder so many adolescents self diagnose! Although the long waiting times can be good for others who just need time to sort it all through themselves (and if they’d been seen early on by GIDS perhaps would have been sucked further into it). I wish they would scrap the whole process and start from scratch.

Many years ago I attended courses by 'Human Givens'
One aspect of their approach is to understand the impact of language on both a person experiencing distress & the person (in this case worker) who is listening.
Their suggested approach was to try to encourage a specific re-framing so that a powerful but not specific statement eg 'Im so depressed' might rather than be left hanging (so reinforced) have the distress acknowledged but with encouragement to pinpoint a more specific & accurate description eg 'Im frustrated about...', 'Im very sad about....'

The Human Givens approach might be of interest/useful to parents. Its intended to focus on which needs are not being met & is solution focussed.

www.humangivens.com/human-givens/about/what-are-the-human-givens/

I have two 12 year old girls and I feel it is very important to talk to them about how awful puberty can make you feel. I talk about the emotional discomfort, how sometimes you walk up and just feel so confused and miserable. I tell them sometimes you just have to blame the hormones. I do this so that they know it is completely normal. We talk a lot about the way boys behave towards girls and what people expect of women. We talk about how stupid stereotypes are and how unfair it feels. We laugh about the ‘fashonistas’ In their class and how they are obsessed by how they look and how they have to have the right stuff. They are both academic science and engineering loving girls. It seems perfectly sane to want to opt out of the female experience so I keep telling them that it is normal to be upset and angry and that they will come out the other side of it after a few years. I tell them how important puberty is to brain development so it is doing a good thing for them in the long run.
I have complete sympathy for you and her and I appreciate that your situation is a lot more complex than mine but I don’t think we should underestimate how awful this time can be for girls and help them to understand that girls throughout time have hated and been confused and distressed but survived it. Good luck.

Sillydoggy - can you expand on this? "I tell them how important puberty is to brain development so it is doing a good thing for them in the long run." Think it'll be useful info for my DD to hold on to.

mindtheclegs
There's an interesting interview with Richard Brook (a lecturer in Social work at the University of East Anglia) about the physical & emotional transition from childhood to adolesence here which has links to brain development resources:
www.hgi.org.uk/resources/podcasts/how-help-teenagers-flourish

Well I am not a brain expert(!) but my understanding from what I have read is that during the puberty years the brain dismantles all the connections it has made during the early years and restructures itself into the adult brain. Once I read about this process it made sense for me why they are so confused and unsettled. I will see if I can find the book I read it in.

I do worry about this in todays climate. It seems to be the thing when adolescents are going through the age of uncertainty about all things. it would be too easy for others to persuade her to go along with change. Personally I would listen and watch, acknowledge her thoughts quietly but not too seriously. Many children change their minds

At that age, I was desperate to cut my hair short and dye it metallic. Mum refused point-blank (fair enough).