12 year old daughter saying she thinks she's male

[controversialquestion]

Hi
Posted this in behaviour and development and got no response. Would really appreciate some advice about who to put DD in contact with for some advice.
Would very much welcome some advice. My 12 year old daughter has appeared perfectly happy (albeit quite quirky) until she started secondary school this year. On the surface she still appears happy - has a good group of friends and social life, and is doing well academically. However, she has been increasingly saying she is self-conscious, and some weeks ago self harmed several times - we have got her some support through both the GP and school. It looked like things were settling down and she had a good half term. However she came to see me yesterday and said she thought she was actually male. She had had a period of about 6 months around 2 years ago where she would only wear boys clothes (and said she had asked friends to call her a boys name but they wouldn't) but since then she has had a number of phases, including some quite girly ones.
I had a long chat with her and told her I didn't think people could be in the wrong body - it was much more about how they perceived themselved etc. and pressures from society. We talked a lot about how you could live your life as you pleased (within reason) as a woman, and didn't need to conform to any gender norm or sexuality while still remaining a woman. She agreed, but said she felt she would feel more comfortable and less self concious with a male body or liviing as a male. She had quite early puberty and has a clearly female shape already.
We kind of left it there with the channels of communication left open, but I would welcome any advice. I certainly do not want her going down the trans route but have made it clear that I have no problem regarding whatever her sexuality may be or how she chooses to present herself / dress etc. Are there any groups that she could talk to that wouldn't encourage her to consider herself trans? I'm really struggling to be both supportive while not wishing to support the idea that she is indeed a male and could / should live like this. Obviously it may all go away in the next few weeks as she's only 12, but even if it does I think it's important she feels listened to and there's obviously something going on with her that requires support. I'm also concerned that if she talks to her counsellor at school that they will refer her to Mermaids or something similar, so feel I need to have identified another support organisation that I can encourage her to contact that won't support this stance.

Oops my thread's gone weird quote posted twice
Ah well, adds to the weirdness I suppose!

Sounds like a normal teenage girl to me. With tomboy leanings.

Agree with Janeskettle don’t argue back or it just creates more resistance.

Empathise with the feelings, let her dress how she wishes, have her hair however she wishes, slow everything right down other than that.

Do not focus her wanting to be a boy; do not argue about it, don't feel the need to constantly check in with her about it, even in a supportive 'I'm just being here for you' way. It's not an obsession we want to feed, even by our kindness and care.

Encourage her other interests, talk about all things not gender.

Redone, could you give a bit more information about your experience with this? What happened with your child/ family member?

Ditto to not listening to the false suicide statistics. Even the Tavi says there is no evidence of this and children with gender confusion/dysphoria are no more likely to be suicidal than children attending CAHMS for other issues.

There is a lot of scaremongering around the argument that parents absolutely must affirm. While I would not criticise parents who feel that path is best for their child, you need to be very wary of anyone who pushes that as the only solution. There are other paths and for us, certainly, watchful waiting has been the right approach.

As others have said, keep communication open. A lot of people (including us!) make the mistake at the start of overreacting and pushing our views onto our children when in hindsight the key can be to just listen and make your child feel safe talking to you about the issue.

My DD has had quite a bit of therapy and we’re now at the stage where we effectively ignore the elephant in the room (as per her therapist’s advice). We have had many discussions with the school about them not affirming (teachers, not children as we obviously can’t influence other children) and we are now at the point where they understand our concerns of the psychological impact of trusted adults around you validating your views.

Our daughter is involved in lots of outdoor activities and volunteer work which keeps her off the Internet as much as possible. Fortunately she now has a nice group of friends who do affirm her, but only because that’s what she wants, not because they believe it to be true- I.e. they aren’t actively pushing it or encouraging it. I’d try to keep your daughter out of the “trans bubble” as much as possible.

Just keep talking.

What does feeling male mean?
What can she do as a boy that she can't as a girl (and vice versa)?
Explore what she thinks girls 'should' feel like
How does becoming a woman feel to her (is she scared of some aspects - which, why?)
How would 'being a boy' change this? How much of a change would make her feel better - name/pronoun...plastic surgery?
Remind her that 'stuff' doesn't make you a boy - a boy can wear a ballgown and still be a boy.
Remind her that gender isn't sex.

Introduce her (if you haven't already) to feminism 101

And yes - try to keep an eye on the social media and 'school clubs'. Remember the recent drag act debacle in Paisly - apparently the kids 'Rainbow club' asked for it. Ummm - what? Shame there wasn't a feminism club to put the case that is it misogyny. Even our school website has 'inclusion' links and they are pretty heavy on the T.

highly likely to self harm or committ suicide

Irresponsible scare-mongering AND fake news.

Keep away from The Tavistock at all costs.
I have a step child who is infertile at 17 now.
The suicide thing is a blatant lie.

Joining an organisation supporting trans children CANNOT make them trans.

this is not about you or what you want

when you do what you should do as a parent

That was a party political broadcast on behalf of the Mermaid Stonewall party.

This is by Lisa Marchiano who is a licensed clinical social worker and licensed Jungian analyst in the USA.

thejungsoul.com/guidance-for-parents-of-teens-with-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria/

The suicide stuff is scaremongering. Every child suicide in the UK is subject to a serious case review, there have been very few where trans identity has been a factor, and a lack of affirmation from parents was not a contributor, they were youth in transition.
Distressed teens are more likely to self harm or experience suicide ideation or attempt suicide, but this is the same for teens who are distressed by a variety of factors, autism being a massive one, as well as being lesbian, gay or bisexual. Bullying seems to be the biggest contributor, but no suicide, child, teen or adult, has a single cause.
Natal girls are more at risk of suicide ideation than natal boys.

Samaritans contact link because it’s irresponsible to discuss suicide without it (something trans scaremongerers usually fail to remember):

www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/contact-samaritan/

The trans child in our family found anime and then ....
Erm...

4thWaveNow article:

'Anime culture & teen trans-trending'
Posted on January 9, 2017
"This morning, after descending into the bowels of the site “Kiwi Farms” (the lair of some of the Internet’s more colorful denizens), we tweet-stormed about the unethical “gender specialists” who profit from the identity confusion of teens addicted to anime and Tumblr-inspired cosplay. The particular Kiwi Farms thread discusses what many of us parents are all too aware of: The impact of hours of pretend-identity play on our kids’ desire to make their Internet fantasies a reality “IRL.”

The question is: Where the hell are the developmental psychologists, sociologists, autism experts, and responsible journalists [more and more an oxymoron] on this issue? It’s not like this stuff is happening in secret." (continues)
4thwavenow.com/2017/01/09/anime-culture-teen-trans-trending/

The irresponsibility of these organisations repeatedly telling gender distressed adolescents that they have a 50/50 chance of attempting suicide is fucking outrageous, frankly.

I remember there was a recording doing the rounds last year of parents/patients being recommended to say that they were suicidal to 'get what they wanted' to their doctors.

I have debated whether or not to report the suicide promoter, but I think other FWR posters have mitigated the irresponsible posting by posting samaritans links etc.

OP, I've been there, many of us have. janeskettle has given the clearest advice in one post, and said all that I would have said. You might be in for the long haul, or this may blow over quickly. Wishing you the very best and assuring you we'll be here as long as we are allowed to be to talk it all through when you need to.

I think your approach has been very sensible and you have got some good advice here so I'm not sure I can add anything but just in case... My friend's daughter went through similar, she tried to limit the internet not by saying she couldn't use it but by distraction, spending time with her doing other things. They were fortunate that a family holiday coincided with these feelings and lots of walks and family board games and being supportive contributed to the feelings subsiding somewhat. One other thing she did was to show her detransitioner videos of women (make sure you watch them first just to check) - she may identify with some of what they are saying and see that you can grow out of those uncomfortable feelings with your body. You are fine with how she presents and you are being supportive so you are being a good parent here, just keep talking to her. Puberty is such a confusing time and it isn't a great world to have a very womanly shape in with the way women are sexualised in society I'm not remotely surprised so many young girls are feeling this way, it was bad enough in my day and eating disorders and self-harm were prevalent for similar reasons. It is not uncommon to be uncomfortable in a body becoming more womanly - I was, I bet most women were and I can only imagine it is worse now with the internet to contend with too.

On a side note it too an age for another friend to get her daughter diagnosed with autism because girls present so differently and are adept at aping social skills so it may be something to watch as you have said.

Keep being there for her maybe find some interesting female role models who don't conform to standard ideas of being a woman like Megan Rapinoe so she can see the different people women can be. Good luck to both of you.

The irresponsibility of these organisations repeatedly telling gender distressed adolescents that they have a 50/50 chance of attempting suicide is fucking outrageous, frankly.

This ^^

The impact this has on the children & vulnerable adults they claim to represent cannot be underestimated.

It is completely irresponsible

Noone with any understanding of Safeguarding & mental health good practice would do this.

Samaritans guidance is very important & well-established.
www.samaritans.org/about-samaritans/media-guidelines/

Stephen Whittle (Press For Change) was challenged on FWR October 2018 about using suicide irresponsibly in a Guardian article. Stephen Whittle eventually acknowledged the potential harms & sought a retraction to the statement having said of the possible consequences,
"but the Samaritan's guidelines never cross my mind. "

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3397010-Guardian-article-on-MPs-concern-with-GRA?watched=1&msgid=81873561#81873561

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3397127-Stephen-Whittle-Press-for-Change-irresponsible-use-of-likely-suicides-follows-Helen-Belchers-Trans-Media-Watch

Also, CAMHS will be a long wait to be assessed and then they’ll just refer on to the child gender clinic, Tavistock and Portman, which has a two year wait.
CAMHS are horrendously overstretched and underfunded and gender dysphoria is considered a specialist area, so they will refer and discharge.

Better to try and find a private therapist who specialises in adolescents and is willing to talk about everything but the gender stuff. Out of reach for many families, I realise.
Or if you suspect undiagnosed high functioning autism is a factor, try and self fund an assessment with an educational psychologist.
The NHS waits for autism assessment for adolescents are massive.

Ok, so a Kiwi Farm thread and a an "article" that from a quick Google shows is another type of forum set up by a parent.
Sounds like opinion pieces, not exactly factual?

That was to Rowantrees stream of links.

I know this isn't relationships but a parent's asked for (and been given) lots of advice. Would be good not to turn it into a bunfight with picky posts?

Sounds like opinion pieces, not exactly factual?

Can you post a link to something 'factual'?

Willis, I don’t believe your contributions are appropriate here. It’s a support thread, not a general discussion. If you have resources you think are more suitable to share with the OP, please do so, otherwise back off.

We know you think we are silly bunch of clucking hens, feel free to say so on other threads. Mocking posters who are trying to assist a mother asking for help and advice is not, as Mumsnet would phrase it ‘in the spirit’.

Agree DuLang. There are plenty of helpful additions to this thread.

That was to Rowantrees stream of links

Which ones Willis?

Samaritans links?

Comments by Stephen Whittle about inevitable 'flurry of suicides'?

Or to 4thWave Now discussing the impact of Anime culture on some children?

"4thWaveNow was started by the mother of a teenage girl who suddenly announced she was a “trans man” after a few weeks of total immersion in YouTube transition vlogs and other trans-oriented social media. (The daughter has since desisted from identifying as transgender.) After much research and fruitless searching for an alternative online viewpoint, this mom began writing about her deepening skepticism of the ever-accelerating medical and media fascination with the phenomenon of “transgender children.”

4thWaveNow has now expanded to feature not only the writing of the founder of this website, but that of other parents, formerly trans-identified people, and people with professional expertise and experience with young people questioning their gender identity."
4thwavenow.com/resource-index/

The daughter of the founder of 4thWaveNow is a founding member of the Pique Resilliance Project.

interview: '4thWaveNow founder & her daughter Chiara of the Pique Resilience Project' (young women who have detransitioned/desisted)
(extract)
Chiara, why do you think you came to believe you were transgender? What forces were acting on you?

At the time, I of course believed that I was “a man trapped in a woman’s body,” and that I would truly not survive if I was not allowed to transition. (I wasn’t constantly or seriously suicidal, though I had ideation at times—it was more that I saw no future for myself as female; the only option in my mind was living as male. Additionally, suicide rates by trans-identified kids are misrepresented and used to threaten and manipulate people into “validating” identities without question.) In hindsight, however, I was struggling to deal with trauma, internalized homophobia, and social isolation. I was at a vulnerable place, and not all that happy being a girl, so I latched onto a trans identity almost as soon as I first heard about it online.

Was there a lot of talk about suicide online? If so, did that influence you in any way?

There was a large amount, the most notable being the case of Leelah Alcorn, an MtF teenager who committed suicide in 2014. Her death affected me, along with many others, as it was sensationalized and widely held up as a warning to parents: “This is what happens when you don’t let your kid transition.” This mantra continues to be repeated online and everywhere, and perpetuates the idea that suicide is the “only way out” for kids whose parents will not accept their gender identity—this is a false statement that should under no circumstance be peddled to impressionable young people.

What made you feel unhappy about being a girl?

I was dealing with trauma, which caused me to want to escape my body. This, in addition to my resistance to accepting my same-sex attraction, resulted in a rejection of being female." (continues)

4thwavenow.com/2019/02/27/a-grand-conspiracy-to-tell-the-truth-an-interview-with-4thwavenow-founder-her-daughter-chiara-of-the-pique-resilience-project/

I agree Languishingfemale. I hope that the pp who complained that others weren't posting facts will realise that all they have is different opinions. All we really have here is the experiences of people who are going through this or have been through this. Dismissing those experiences as 'opinions not facts' isn't helpful for those who are negotiating this minefield.