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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

12 year old daughter saying she thinks she's male

131 replies

controversialquestion · 25/02/2020 17:30

Hi
Posted this in behaviour and development and got no response. Would really appreciate some advice about who to put DD in contact with for some advice.
Would very much welcome some advice. My 12 year old daughter has appeared perfectly happy (albeit quite quirky) until she started secondary school this year. On the surface she still appears happy - has a good group of friends and social life, and is doing well academically. However, she has been increasingly saying she is self-conscious, and some weeks ago self harmed several times - we have got her some support through both the GP and school. It looked like things were settling down and she had a good half term. However she came to see me yesterday and said she thought she was actually male. She had had a period of about 6 months around 2 years ago where she would only wear boys clothes (and said she had asked friends to call her a boys name but they wouldn't) but since then she has had a number of phases, including some quite girly ones.
I had a long chat with her and told her I didn't think people could be in the wrong body - it was much more about how they perceived themselved etc. and pressures from society. We talked a lot about how you could live your life as you pleased (within reason) as a woman, and didn't need to conform to any gender norm or sexuality while still remaining a woman. She agreed, but said she felt she would feel more comfortable and less self concious with a male body or liviing as a male. She had quite early puberty and has a clearly female shape already.
We kind of left it there with the channels of communication left open, but I would welcome any advice. I certainly do not want her going down the trans route but have made it clear that I have no problem regarding whatever her sexuality may be or how she chooses to present herself / dress etc. Are there any groups that she could talk to that wouldn't encourage her to consider herself trans? I'm really struggling to be both supportive while not wishing to support the idea that she is indeed a male and could / should live like this. Obviously it may all go away in the next few weeks as she's only 12, but even if it does I think it's important she feels listened to and there's obviously something going on with her that requires support. I'm also concerned that if she talks to her counsellor at school that they will refer her to Mermaids or something similar, so feel I need to have identified another support organisation that I can encourage her to contact that won't support this stance.

OP posts:
DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 25/02/2020 23:17

My stepdaughter is the same. It started when she went back to school after the summer holidays. She’d just turned 13.

We have told her that we understand her distress is real, but people can’t actually change sex. It’s all been very low key (the school told us) until Friday just gone, where she ended up crying and shouting in the toilets at a restaurant.

It’s late but I will post more tomorrow. Hold fast!

Strangerthantruth · 25/02/2020 23:31

So frustrating that this shitty idea that changing sex and born in the wrong body is taking hold like this. The people pushing this grim situation on families need to stop. They won't though, regrettably humans can be diabolical, and this has to be one of the most diabolical man made disasters ever forced onto children.

stumbledin · 25/02/2020 23:48

This aren't necessarily the best links, but thought some of the young women discussing why they thought they wanted to transition and then later on reconsidered might be useful. But on the other hand it may just be more pressure on her.

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/meet-detransitioners-women-became-men-now-want-go-back/

www.transgendertrend.com/detransition/

www.feministcurrent.com/2020/01/09/detransitioners-are-living-proof-the-practices-surrounding-trans-kids-need-be-questioned/

So these maybe be more something you might find interesting and then decide whether to share with her (I am sure others on this thread could find better links).

And as others have said giving her the space to talk and think it through.

And as others have suggested detransitioners seem to have common factors one of which is autism, and the other is about probably being lesbian but finding this difficult (or school culture ridicules it).

Just out of interest was her former school single sex and has she now moved to a mixed sex school?

It must be such a worry for you as a mother. I was a truculent young teen, described as a tomboy, but at that time most people just shrugged. Part of it for me was about my body maturing, although quite late, but quite honestly for me I think I just didn't want to be an adult!

Hope the communications keeps going, and glad she has a friend who is supportive.

DodoPatrol · 25/02/2020 23:55

The niche hobby... it’s not manga/anime by any chance? If so, have a very careful look at what she’s doing and seeing online.

Staffori · 26/02/2020 00:41

There's a bunch of links on this page might be worth a look: www.peaktrans.org/children/

Italiangreyhound · 26/02/2020 01:59

It's very tough, @controversialquestion

Not sure if these have been linked to. They are not for her to watch, they are for you to watch and see what you think.

This is not to scare you at all, it is just info that is out there.

I'd also say all the usual, surround her with your love and care, and do what feels right.

For the trans person in our wider family we tried not to change pronouns and names etc but in the end they were so unhappy we did that.

One of the main reasons was that I felt if I am not someone they can turn to, they may not tell me if they have doubts etc. Good luck.

(There is an LGBT children section in 'Being a parent', it is full of parents whose children are saying they feel they are trans. It may provide some support and show you some of the other stories out there.)

Italiangreyhound · 26/02/2020 02:00

'Being a parent' on Mumsnet...

Lordfrontpaw · 26/02/2020 09:36

It seems to be that girls get to the age when their bodies change and they can't handle it for whatever reason - maybe they fear growing up, want to remain a child, are embarrassed by having breasts, be teased about having boobs/periods (or lack of), scared of the unwanted attention from men, grossed out by periods, scared of the prospect of having babies (it wasn't all that long ago that some girls didn't have all the facts and would be terrified they were pregnant if they kissed a boy or sat on a loo seat with wee on it - that must have been bloody scary).

The easy option is to 'opt out' of the woman club and there seems to be so much reinforcement - even encouragement - these days.

Babdoc · 26/02/2020 10:10

My autistic DD, who loves maths, trains, science fiction and martial arts, could well have been dragged into the trans pathway if that ideology had been around 20 years ago.
Fortunately, she grew up in a household that was radical feminist. It’s a good defence for young teens if they see being female as a huge positive. DD had no hesitation in punching a boy who was bullying her on the school bus, she certainly wasn’t intimidated by male attention whether sexual or aggressive!
She was also thrilled by the discovery of female multiple orgasm - she came rushing downstairs to tell me and celebrate her first one at the age of 12 -some autistics are rather prone to oversharing!
I think you can do a bit of work on pushing the advantages of being female, and perhaps look down on males as being nothing she should want to aspire to, with their shorter life expectancy, excessive violence and criminality, inability to bear children, poorer orgasms, social pressure to hide emotions, higher suicide and addiction rates etc etc.
Also stress the difference between being female (anatomy, biology, unavoidable) and performing femininity (artificial dated stereotypes, peer group pressure, optional) - she does not have to sign up to any of the latter.
If you can show her that women can do and be whatever they want in life, she may be less inclined to try and pretend to be male. I was a hospital doctor and widowed single mother, so I suppose I was role modelling the “women can do it all” unconsciously. Certainly my DDs never felt that womanhood was unpleasant or to be avoided. Good luck!

DodoPatrol · 26/02/2020 10:14

Crikey, I'm not sure I'd be up for talking about female orgasm to my 12 year old!

But that's part of the problem, I suppose, as these children have no idea what they might be losing. I think the person up thread who said she probably wants to remain a child rather than become a man might be right.

controversialquestion · 26/02/2020 12:45

Thanks so much for all the advice - really useful to hear other's experience. Interestingly I don't (or at least, didn't) think she thought being male was something to aspire to. I'm the breadwinner in the family and have a much more interesting and adventurous life than her dad which she seems to recognise. She's always viewed boys as a bit inferior and to looked at with amused tolerance. Her sister, however seems to have fully embraced the patriachy, which is another story....

Interesting someone mentions Manga - she does like it. I tend to keep quite a close tab on what she's looking at (have software which means I can see her searches etc, which she knows about) but haven't come across anything I think is particularly concerning, although I am wary of it. Any advice on specific genres etc. I need to look out for would be very helpful.

OP posts:
DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 26/02/2020 14:59

I don’t think it’s really about wanting to be male, it’s more seeing transition as an escape route from
growing up to be a woman.

When my stepdaughter was crying about hating her body and wanting us to use male pronouns we were in the vestibule bit between the ladies/gents/accessible loos and I pointed at the door to the gents and said ‘Do you really think you should be using that one?’ and she said no, and I said ‘Good, because I don’t think so either and nor do I think you should go to a male prison should you ever be caught shoplifting or something.’

She’s in a massive muddle of mixed messages, I told her that people cannot change sex and she said ‘sex and gender aren’t the same’ so I said ‘gender isn’t real, it’s just sex stereotypes’ so she shouted I KNOW IT’S A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT’ (Good!) - ‘so how will using male pronouns make you more comfortable with your body?’

No answer.

It was actually a relief to see her burst all this into family life in such a dramatic way, because up until now it’s been a teenage-bubble thing, using a boys name to play computer games or getting her mates to call her he/him and wearing a knitted beanie 24/7). It was good to see some good old fashioned door slamming teen angst.

We were out with a group, inc several of my female friends between 30-50 so I was able to say stuff like, look at all these women, do you think any of them give a stuff about leg shaving or sitting with their knees together or any other supposedly socially enforced nonsense? As well as point out that girls that felt the way she does in my era where anorexics, and in her big brother’s era they were all cutting themselves.

She’s complicated, nerdy, socially anxious, bright and hates the sexual attention that her developing figure attracts. Puberty is rough for her, in the way it is for so many girls. It’s rough for boys in a completely different way, and we were able to talk about that too.

Her dad spent his teenage years fighting strangers in pubs and hanging around Hells Angels, so he’s been trying to communicate how the grass isn’t greener, it’s just different.

The problem is, the ‘boy’ she imagine herself to be is another social construct, it’s a uwu trans boy in a bow tie, not an actual male. Loads of detransitioners are reporting that it was when they started passing for male that they changed their minds, they found they couldn’t make friends with girls so easily and women were crossing the street to avoid having them walk behind them. Yet they were still themselves scared of men, or scared of having their trans status discovered. They weren’t any happier, they had traded one kind of social anxiety for another.

I’ve started collecting meaningful and profound tweets from detransitioners. I’m not showing them to DsD yet, she’s only 13, but I’m building a little resource in preparation.

Here’s one from the marvellous ‘Satan Herself’

12 year old daughter saying she thinks she's male
DodoPatrol · 26/02/2020 15:50

Hi Controversial, the problem with manga/anime is that it tips over into easily accessible cartoon 'hentai' porn, some of it really vile. My older child warned me about this when my younger one started a quite innocent obsession with Studio Ghibli anime films, (most of) which are beautiful and child-friendly.

And a manga avatar online is... sometimes a guide that the person behind it is into things you'd rather your young child didn't get involved with.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 26/02/2020 16:24

Oops. Not sure if the lack of promised Satan Herself quote is my fault or a mumsnet glitch, but here is another attempt, with a bonus quote.

‘Satan’ spoke at the Manchester Detransitioners event last year. She’d had a double mastectomy and a total hysterectomy by the age of 21. It was only after the hysterectomy, when she joined an online support group in search of advice and info on post hysterectomy issues that she came to the realisation that her hysterectomy hadn’t made her more ‘male’ because the only people who have hysterectomies are female people.

She’s funny, creative, insightful, profound and fierce, and as she herself phrases it, has been ‘castrated’.

She’s now 23, a reidentified woman and a self described butch lesbian. She’s still battling with an eating disorder, one that predates her transition. This seems to be another reoccurring theme amongst detransitioners, so something for parents of gender distressed teenagers (especially girls) to be aware of. I think she’s a marvellous human being.

‘Satan’ is German, but as we know, the phenomenon of adolescent girls suddenly identifying as boys is happening all over the western world. From my lurks on the transgender UK subreddit, I am certain that it’s possible for a 21 year old to get a hysterectomy purely for the purposes of gender transition on the NHS in 2020.

12 year old daughter saying she thinks she's male
12 year old daughter saying she thinks she's male
controversialquestion · 26/02/2020 17:20

Hi
Thanks - will keep an eye on the anime but am as sure as I can be it’s currently not the dodgy stuff.
Thanks for the quotes and other links - will spend some time looking through

OP posts:
Italiangreyhound · 26/02/2020 17:52

The trans child in our family found anime and then ....

I don't know why it is so relevant but it is.

Lordfrontpaw · 26/02/2020 17:56

Yup like dodo said. You only have to look at the twitter profile images of the oddest of the odd - often manga characters. Very stalkers cutzie schoolgirls in skimpy costumes, huge boobs and massive eyes. A lot of the memes posted (the Kill/Shut Up T*) are manga girlies with guns/stun rays. It definitely had a ‘type’ of fanboy.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 26/02/2020 18:00

It’s an absolute barrage of info, isn’t it?

We’re following the advice given by Sasha Ayad and Lisa Marchiano online. There are lots of videos and texts to explore but essentially it’s:

Understand the distress is real, keep talking, delay requests for change by saying what a big deal all this is and us parents need the time to research and understand and that you’ll revisit their request in 6 months, get them offline as much as possible (but don’t ban the internet completely) and get them out of the house and doing physical activities as much as possible (my
DH has taken up indoor climbing in order to take DsD with him and DsD has joined Cadets). It’s also good to draw a hard line beyond which no negotiation is allowed. For us that is nothing that causes (or has the potential to cause) permanent change before the age of 18, so no binders, no hormones, no surgery.

Clothes are totally her choice. Hairstyles are negotiable but with her mum, not me and her dad. We aren’t doing male names but are willing to call her by her initial or by the unisex nickname that her name is often shortened to.
School have been told to back off.

I try not to judge parents who follow the mainstream, affirmation Mermaids route. We are all just trying to do our best for our kids. If western society weren’t in the grip of what seems to be an obvious social contagion perhaps we’d be more inclined towards affirmation. As it is, we very strongly view DsD’s cross sex identification as symptomatic of distress, rather then the cause of her distress.

Her younger step sister has only recently returned to school after a year of more or less living at the children’s hospital, combine the trauma of that with the awfulness of an awkward, spotty, greasy puberty, being catcalled by an adult male for the first time, an emerging same sex attraction and subsequent lesbophobic bullying in school, along with feeling closer emotionally to her father than her mother (her mum speaks English as a second language but hasn’t taught DsD her home language) all swirling about her head, along with the possibility of undiagnosed high functioning autism and school, her peers and the internet are all saying ‘you can be a boy! You’ll be happy as a boy’.

Throw in the porn some of her school peers are undoubtedly watching and Instagram-filter, lip-filler beauty standards and It’s just utterly shit for adolescent girls at the moment. Who wouldn’t prefer to be a boy?

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 26/02/2020 18:03

DsD is also into comic book culture, inc but not focussed on anime. It’s the perfect fantasy fodder, a character who is a drawing can do, or become, anything. Transformation is a big theme in all of them (most super heroes are mild mannered nerds who transform, for example).

NellieEllie · 26/02/2020 18:36

My 12 yr old DD went through a diff stage in year 7. For the first time, she became targeted with male attention at school and catcalled in the street. She started her periods at 11 and that was hard I think, lots of moods, nd lack of confidence.She had her hair cut very short, and very much tried to look like a boy. We talked a lot about ‘gender identity’ and about girls being able to look how the heck they wanted. I went on about how strange it was that all the girls tend to look the same at her school - as she has said. Make up, long hair, skirts hitched as high as poss.
I also talked to her about her right to her own space and not standing for boys hassling her. Listened to her take on it.
A year later, I am still on my guard, but things are relaxed more. She is more confident, and I think, more in control.
I read some books on neuro science and teenagers - really, really useful. I showed her some bits - diplomatically - not in a hey, look what’s happening to you, but tried to reassure her that the sense of not fitting in is entirely normal as a teenager, feeling angry irritated is also normal.
She loves the activities she does - drama, martial arts, and I really concentrated on getting her to pursue the things she enjoyed. Right now, we’re working on getting her more confident, doing stuff on her own or with friends, restricting access to internet..
I hope things get better. I am terrified my DD may buy into the whole GI thing so understand how you feel.x

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 26/02/2020 18:48

I’ve been reading stuff about depression and anxiety in teenage girls (as there is not much out there for on a non affirmative approach for gender distress, at least, not officially) and something I came across mentioned that depression is more common in girls who start their period on the early end of normal (ie, 11, 12 rather than 13,14).
Not looked further into that yet but I thought it was interesting (if only because looking more or less like a woman at the age of 11 is bound to be more socially difficult than at 14, when it’s still bloody difficult!).

The same article said having a ruminative approach to handling emotion made teens more vulnerable to depression and anxiety. I thought that was particularly interesting because the way young women tend to use social media can encourage ruminative thinking (especially on a site like Tumblr).

ScrimshawTheSecond · 26/02/2020 20:04

Active listening. My go-to answer for everything when my kids are acting up. She needs space to speak what she is feeling, to not be judged. I would want to know why she's been self conscious, self harming - has something happened or is there an element of depression, something upsetting her?

So, I'd recommend setting aside some time for just the two of you, so you can let her know it's time just for her to talk, relax and hang out with you.

Lots of potentially useful articles on this website - attachment parenting, basically, for all ages & stages:

www.ahaparenting.com/ask-the-doctor-1/11-year-old-girl-worried-about-puberty-and-adolescence

'One study found that tween boys looked forward to adolescence and the strength, power, independence and prestige they would develop. Tween girls, on the other hand, dreaded adolescence, fearing menstruation, their new vulnerability to men, and the pressure to be sexy and attractive. Most girls don't know how to put these anxieties into words, but they feel them.'

www.ahaparenting.com/parenting-tools/communication/crisis-connect-child

www.ahaparenting.com/parenting-tools/communication

Redone123 · 27/02/2020 08:48

There is some terrible advise on here. Children and young people who self identify as Trans are highly likely to self harm or committ suicide. You are unlikely to know this is coming. Your child has told you and now you have to do something. Joining an organisation supporting trans children CANNOT make them trans but gives them a safe space to decide who they are. Go and see your Dr and get on the CAMHS waiting list for counselling. At some stage you will have to include the school. They will need to know what's going on so they can support your child. It's a tricky journey but ultimately this is not about you or what you want but ensuring your child is safe and happy. As a parent you are now going to have to bring your A game. Good luck, you can do this and one positive rarely talked about is that when you do what you should do as a parent, you will have the closest relationship you ever dreamed of with your child because they will recognise you as a good person. Society will eventually catch up.

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 27/02/2020 08:57

The trans child in our family found anime and then ....
Erm....

DsD is also into comic book culture, inc but not focussed on anime. It’s the perfect fantasy fodder, a character who is a drawing can do, or become, anything. Transformation is a big theme in all of them (most super heroes are mild mannered nerds who transform, for example)

I'm a big Harry Potter fan but learning about transfiguration classes and that McGonagall can turn into a cat and Rita Skeeter into a beetle etc doesn't make me magically want to become one.... Hmm

Transformation is a big theme in all of them (most super heroes are mild mannered nerds who transform, for example)
I'm a total Superman geek and have been since a child (not so much Harry Potter which I was a young adult when that came out.)
Obsessed with Superman. Never wanted to become him though!
I think young people should be credited with a bit more intelligence.
This thread's gone weird.
I love Superman and have done since I was a child

This thread's gone weird.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 27/02/2020 08:58

Be very wary of people recklessly pushing tropes about self harm/suicide. This is highy irresponsible and unethical.

www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/