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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The WI and their 'transgender' policy

74 replies

MrsSnippyPants · 22/02/2020 18:38

I know this has been discussed before but I have just got around to reading the actual policy of the WI.
Which I am pretty sure Stonewall would find transphobic!

Extract:
"Can male to female transgender people join a WI and attend WI events?
Yes – anyone living as a woman is welcome to join the WI and take part in all WI activities. They should be treated in exactly the same way as all women who are part of your WI.

Can crossdressers join the WI?
No – only those living as women can join the WI and take part in all WI activities."

Has anyone here discussed this in their local branch or with The Powers That Be? Is this still national policy?

hampshirewi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Transgender-Policy.pdf

OP posts:
Datun · 23/02/2020 10:56

There is a type of AGP where participating in activities seem as 'typically' female is arousing. I think knitting is used as an example.

So there will absolutely be a certain type of transwoman, presumably the type that the WI do not really want to welcome, who will be attracted to it purely on that basis.

And, of course, the fact that the WI is historically and firmly for women only, means that any male born individual who wants entry, is, by virtue of that, knowingly transgressing boundaries.

And finally, the presence of a male in a female only environment instantly changes the dynamic. One amongst thousands may not, but one in a village hall of 20, will.

Datun · 23/02/2020 11:17

I've found the info:

Males with autogynephilia can have a variety of autogynephilic fantasies and interests, from cross dressing to fantasizing about having female bodies to enjoying (for erotic reasons) stereotypical female activities such as knitting to fantasizing about being pregnant or menstruating.

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

OneEpisode · 23/02/2020 16:36

Didn’t someone on here post the international diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria? I am not I’m sure I’m qualified to say if the criteria developed by the folks at WPATH are objective but I’m sure it said something about excluding a list of “philia”. How Dr Lorrimer can sign that letter after one appointment is interesting.
And even more interesting that the Scottish Government self-Id consultation admits that trans people who haven’t applied for a GRC would in large numbers, not qualify under the existing rules. It doesn’t offer why they wouldn’t qualify, an interesting omission because that information would be helpful in deciding if change was warranted...

Coyoacan · 24/02/2020 03:24

I very much like spending time with men and I know I would really enjoy Rose of Dawn's company, but organisations should be honest about what they are doing. Promising people same sex spaces only for them to find out that they are mixed is a bit off.

The Women's Institute should change it's name to the Humans' Institute.

Barracker · 24/02/2020 12:42

The Women's Institute should change it's name to the Humans' Institute.

Exactly.
It surprises me that people who are reasonably appalled at the compulsory male guardianship of women rules in Saudi Arabia, are a bit meh about the introduction of compelled male presence within "women's" groups in the UK.
It seems there are women in both countries prepared to facilitate men's rights to affect or control women's groups, and to say what a good thing it is for women to have men's involvement in women's groups, and how it's better for women as a whole to not be allowed to exclude men.

Either women have the right to say, sorry, this group is only for women, no men at all thanks. Or they don't.

I'm sure it makes it easier to swallow that in the UK we can tell ourselves that the compulsory male presence where any group of women gather is 'invited', or 'voluntary' or 'kind'.
Except that the consequences of women deciding, no, we don't want ANY men to have access to WOMEN ONLY groups seem to be significantly disturbing, enough that we're lying to ourselves about how freely we're able to decide to protect our boundaries.

"We freely choose to give up the right to have female only groups, spaces or associations" is more comforting than
"We fear consequences, if we fiercely defend our right to refuse."

If you don't believe you can actually say no, your yes is not freely given at all.

CharlieParley · 24/02/2020 14:32

The right to assemble outwith the presence of males in order to focus on issues that affect females; for females to associate with one another only, is explicitly considered a proportionate means to a legitimate end. (It is currently a legal right of ours to have the WI for females only. We have a right to assemble on the basis of our shared protected characteristic, ie our sex, to organise around common interests, including politically.)

And while the WI can include those with a GRC it cannot lawfully include males without a GRC who identify as trans and exclude males without a GRC who crossdress.

That would be unlawful sex discrimination against all legal males, including crossdressers. An awful lot of organisations don't understand that, unfortunately.

Furthermore, I don't want men of any kind at the WI. Every mixed-sex space that I have ever experienced was dominated by men. And even the whimpiest male will intimidate some women. For those who seek the company of males, there are a whole range of other organisations available. Please allow those of us who value women's space to keep it women-only.

LonginesPrime · 24/02/2020 16:14

When I meet transwomen in women-only spaces, I'm often struck by the fact I encounter sexism (for example, the transwoman making sexist comments about how 'girls' behave or taking about 'girly' things) which the women in the room are powerless to challenge.

I don't know how many other women feel the same way and how many don't notice the sexism, but it seems risky to challenge it in an environment where, by the very inclusion of transwomen, it is clear that we are all supposed to maintain that TWAW.

I also find some transwomen's conception of 'being a woman' and what they think it means to be a woman in respect of mannerisms and attire to be highly sexist and offensive, although I appreciate it's not cool to be offended by that because it's (conveniently) dressed up as 'personal style'.

Many women who seek out women-only spaces do so to avoid sexism, and this is what they're having to endure instead.

It's the fact that women's behaviour and speech is controlled in such a way that they can't voice any objection that's particularly scary.

SomeDyke · 24/02/2020 16:23

"Its the WI. We're not all sat around talking about our breasts and vaginas all day."

Except being female isn't just about having (or not having) breasts and a vagina. Every cell of my body (as far as I know, I might after all have some degree of chimerism) is female. Hence my female puberty, my female reproductive organs and secondary sexual characteristics, and my female menopause. All of which, as female specific experiences, I might want to converse with others about assuming I was in a female-only space, or talking to another female.

More than just tits and cunt, thank-you very much!

Lordfrontpaw · 24/02/2020 16:45

Well there's my next t-shirt slogan...

Beamur · 24/02/2020 17:52

Good post Barracker interesting when you frame it like that.

Annasgirl · 24/02/2020 18:04

100% with Barracker here - we are women, and want to meet up with women, not men who are now trans and who are, and always will be, male (XX).

I'm always amazed at the speed with which the "but what about the menz and their feelz" appear on these threads.

Annasgirl · 24/02/2020 18:05

Also @SomeDyke - I love that slogan - can we adopt it for this forum??? Perhaps to annoy the people who feel we only discuss Trans issues.

Lordfrontpaw · 24/02/2020 18:07

I was thinking of ‘the word woman is taken’ but I prefer this one. Now, when is parent's evening again?

ManchesterAunt · 24/02/2020 18:25

I'm not disputing the need for a female only space to discuss female problems. Or suggesting because we do not talk about vaginas all the time that the WI should accept trans women.

I think again and again as shown on the board when trans women come into female spaces there's a tendency to monopolise the conversation or the tone.

That said, I stand by my original point which was to Long Paw and that is - it's the WI. As a active member I can assure you that it's really fucking boring, and long winded, and not "titillating" at all. And the wheels are not progressive, or cared about by the population at large.

I suspect that you've never been in the WI. The hottest topics within a large swathe of members is how much to charge for a cup of tea, and how to ask the community to look after the bees.

I suspect it's far too mundane and extrospective to be meddled with by the trans community.

Anyone that would like to join, could then request a change to the membership and would be more than welcome to do so. You could put forward your complaint to the National Head Office, or put in a Resolution. And you might see some action, if lots of people agree with you, in about 7 years.

Lordfrontpaw · 24/02/2020 18:29

Yes - but I did point out that these was a poster who recounted a music group/orchestra with a trans woman member who made a point of being in the Ladies loos with women from teens up and trying to discuss tampons, periods etc (as in ‘oh I don’t have any tampons one me - can I borrow one’). It was how they go their jollies I suppose and the girls felt scared.

Datun · 24/02/2020 18:42

I suspect it's far too mundane and extrospective to be meddled with by the trans community.

It's not about the business of the WI, what they do or don't talk about, what is important, what isn't.

It's about being accepted as a woman within one of the most female centric organisations we have.

For those transwomen who are AGP, the mundanity or the banality will be irrelevant. Being accepted as a woman, amongst the mundane and banal, is exactly what will be arousing.

LonginesPrime · 24/02/2020 18:47

As a active member I can assure you that it's really fucking boring, and long winded, and not "titillating" at all

If you're referring to the AGP comments, I think you're misunderstanding how fetishes work - I don't claim to be an expert but fetishists tend to derive a sexual thrill from something that most people don't find remotely sexual, like feet, freckles or knitting.

I appreciate that, to you, the WI is run-of-the-mill and not at all thrilling as it's your normal. But for someone who's always been excluded from that world on account of their being male, being able to put on silky underwear and a flouncy dress and have women collude in their fantasy that they're a lady and refer to their fantasy feminine persona is the height of excitement, even if the real-life context is a boring update on the church roof fund.

ManchesterAunt · 24/02/2020 18:47

Sorry Lord Front paw, I did then go on to understand your point, just explaining why I wrote what I did.

And Datun, the WI will welcome your voice and support. About £45 a year Brew Cheaper from March.

Lordfrontpaw · 24/02/2020 18:52

Ok right you are!

Dozer · 24/02/2020 18:56

That policy is v unclear. What on earth do they mean “living as a woman”? Dressing in clothing usually worn by women all of the time, and asking to be called female pronouns, all of the time? The WI couldn’t check those things.

They could just use the GRC as a criteria.

SomeDyke · 24/02/2020 18:58

I would have perhaps agreed with the 'surely not the WI' until someone told me about the knitting-fetish thing. Then you realise there really is nothing about female biology or female-stereotypical activities that some male hasn't already fetishised. It's the journey from ' no one would want to perve on my wrinkly bits in a changing room' to 'yes they do'.

The fetishists have no boundaries that I can see (even using the Hubble telescope), so we need to protect ourselves from them.

As regards T-shirts, print away, I'm flattered! Grin

FleecyMoo · 24/02/2020 19:06

I am no longer a WI member because, yes, it is pretty boring. I only went along to the craft events, afternoon teas and countryside walks. I had no interest in the monthly meetings because it felt too much like being at work!

I may rejoin at some point and I don't think that men of any type should be admitted because their presence would definitely alter the group dynamic. They have plenty of places to meet and chat already and it's important to me that we keep our (very few) female only clubs and societies single (biological) sex.

To illustrate my reasoning I'll give an example of how the WI differed from my mixed sex pottery class - when I had a menopausal hot flush at a WI event many women sympathised but when I had one at pottery class one of the male 'class clowns' saw fit to make a joke of which I was the butt. Sadly I was too slow to 'quip' back at him querying his testosterone levels and whether they were lessening and that's why he felt the need to humiliate me.

littlebilliie · 27/04/2025 18:09

Any update on the WI policy for women.

MolluscMonday · 28/04/2025 23:26

I’d also like to know. My local WI is completely captured and has a strong trans contingent.

MistyGreenAndBlue · 29/04/2025 00:57

I believe this dude joined with his wife

The WI and their 'transgender' policy