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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GRC changes dropped?

188 replies

WishThisWasLangClegGin · 22/02/2020 00:33

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d19ad4fe-54d9-11ea-a869-24971f770bf3?shareToken

Bloody hell if that's true, that's fantastic!

OP posts:
Lordfrontpaw · 22/02/2020 15:28

Once they’ve dried their eyes, blown their snottery noses, and had a cup of sweet tea then I’m sure we’ll hear all about it.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 22/02/2020 15:36

if it comes in in Scotland I will the first to say ‘devolute away - get tae fuck and don’t come back

Don't leave us to this mess, please!!!

I'm glad of this news today, but it seems utterly unfair if Scotland ploughs ahead with what I think increasingly is seen as utterly ridiculous legislation. England/Wales has looked at it, seen that it is radioactively batshit, and backed away swiftly. But up here it seems we're still forging on - because SA Somerville and Sturgeon somehow think it's a trendy flag to be flying in our Brave New Nation. And the women of Scotland will have to deal with all the consequences.

Lordfrontpaw · 22/02/2020 15:40

I leave you to your rainbow St Andrews flag...

Jesus, you turn your back for 30 years and your country goes to shite...

bluehighlighter · 22/02/2020 15:49

The Scottish Government will have to deal with all the negligence claims. If they've read the Times today, they may start to take that on board.

EwwSprouts · 22/02/2020 15:53

Bought a Saturday Times for third week running. My thank you.

Lordfrontpaw · 22/02/2020 15:55

DH has a habit not of passing the paper, saying ‘now this will cheer you up!’ These days. He always predicted it would turn about face and he is usually a very good predictor of trends.

Sadly to say he isn’t hopeful for the US elections but he isn’t allowed to say it out loud.

Fairenuff · 22/02/2020 15:56

I've always wondered what happens when a self identified transperson visits a country that does not recognise self ID. Or even someone who has a GRC but visits a country which does not allow mixed sex spaces.

Lordfrontpaw · 22/02/2020 16:03

Oh, The Scotsman - maybe not all is lost (but Jess Phillips getting on this - no thanks love.

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/why-counting-dead-women-is-a-necessary-task-susan-dalgety-1-5094195/amp?__twitter_impression=true

LexMitior · 22/02/2020 16:04

If Scotland press ahead with these changes, then you have a really clear view as to how children and women are thought of. They won’t have been.

You wait for the trans discrimination claims made if Self ID is passed. Now those will be outrageous given the current activism. It will be Janiv - and expect zero assistance from Westminster if Scotland get themselves in this mess. It will be a problem all of their own making.

Bananabixfloof · 22/02/2020 16:12

Can you get a gas bill in any name though? Don't you need any proof at all
Without going into why, one of my children (adult obviously) has changed their name on all bills. Nothing at all required. For a bank account a official change of name is required. For bills I suppose no one cares so long as the actual bill is paid.

stumbledin · 22/02/2020 16:13

Hold on a moment!!

The article says one source (not named) has told them the Government is concerned about how children are being allowed to take decisions that may badly impact their future because of the "affirmation" policy.

There is NOTHING in the article to say that self id for adults wont go ahead.

Apart from the one quote the rest is just the Times repeating what is has published before about concerns from women's groups.

Unfortunately I think the article will just lead to a huge onslaught by the trans lobby to make sure the Tories ammend the GRA. They may even concede the ground on children to get what they want which is self id.

Self id (irrespective of weepy stories about trans people having to wait for so long) is about undermining the biological reality of sex and the reality that women are a sex.

I expect that we are going to have to be even more alert and on our toes, because as we know the trans lobby has very effective private networks to Government / civil service, and they will now be working over time to get this leak scotched.

SarahTancredi · 22/02/2020 16:19

So what now.i mean its surely at the point where everyone has already acted as if its law a way that scrapping it makes little difference.

How do we get things to go back to how they should be.

I emailed the nspcc after the verita report to inform them.their.policies were advised by someone.found to be incompetent re safeguarding and they never even responded

Prisons, gyms, schools etc are all now acting illegally

How will this be undone

Fairenuff · 22/02/2020 16:21

For bills I suppose no one cares so long as the actual bill is paid.

Well yes but I was thinking more about when they are not paid. If it's a made up name then the person can legally say, not me Guv. Or if they move without paying, they can't be traced.

SarahTancredi · 22/02/2020 16:26

data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/health-and-social-care-and-lgbt-communities/written/91159.html

I also found this on Twitter. Advocating for the hounding or removal of health care professionals who dont affirm

LexMitior · 22/02/2020 16:28

No this article is important. It looks as if children are the “fig leaf” for not doing this - but you don’t bother to say you won’t be doing a huge change on one basis is you aren’t going to ditch the rest of it. This is good news.

Believe me “government source” has backing. Otherwise this would not have appeared at all for the grief it could cause the Government.

Needmoresleep · 22/02/2020 16:32

Exactly. The Times is not silly and the juxtaposition with Janice Turner's article is not coincidence. Nor, I suspect, is the fact that Andrew Gilligan, formerly of the Times, is now a No10 adviser.

youllhavehadyourtea · 22/02/2020 16:45

theres a new article in the Guardian about Sweden
www.theguardian.com/society/2020/feb/22/ssweden-teenage-transgender-row-dysphoria-diagnoses-soar

bluehighlighter · 22/02/2020 18:10

Great article about Sweden. A review there due soon. If the tide turns in Scandinavia, that could maybe affect things in Scotland.

bluehighlighter · 22/02/2020 18:29

That "Written Evidence" from Mermaids is really chilling. Among many other gems , it seems they want to roll out mass pro-transing children education by the NHS itself:

"Public Education around TNB CYP (GIDS)

Recommendation 4:

NHS should educate all staff in relation to TNB CYP lives and healthcare and this should be trans-inclusive and based on gender affirmative care model.
All members of staff should feel capable of advocating for TNB patients should it be necessary.
Training should administered to all staff members to ensure no NHS worker practises in a transphobic or unaware way.
NHS Staff could be used to train other public sectors such as our schools and legal sectors."

magicrainbowbeans · 22/02/2020 18:39

NHS Staff could be used to train other public sectors such as our schools and legal sectors.

Which would lend the 'training' credibility out doesn't deserve to have

magicrainbowbeans · 22/02/2020 18:39

*it

BitOfFun · 22/02/2020 18:41

Exactly. Stealthy fuckers.

StealthPolarBear · 22/02/2020 19:07

While this sounds like good news this article doesn't fill me with confidence.

ChattyLion · 23/02/2020 10:43

I’ve only read the Daily Mail article not the Times so please could someone reassure me if I have misunderstood something relevant. But I don’t think any of us can celebrate or relax until the deeply problematic, outdated and unnecessary GRA is actually repealed. There’s absolutely nothing about that happening in here is there?

This message seems to be only about children. I seem to remember we’ve had statements like this in the press before. The ‘news’ is only that we’ll see this consultation response before the summer. Let’s see.

Whatever happens, we need to keep on raising up our voices to our MPs now as loudly as we can (before this government response is written and signed off by ministers) and we need to point to and hope for a positive resolution of the various ongoing legal cases for the gender critical position, to help to row back on institutional capture.

A key point of the men’s sexual rights lobby campaign led by the TRAs around the 2018 GRA consultation, beyond their demand for dangerous GRC self-ID, was also to extend the GRC so that all under 18 year olds could also be able to change their sex legally via GRC. (I didn’t see any lower age limit suggested in their campaigning- please correct me if anyone knows different).
So that would have meant parents legally consenting to ‘change’ the legal paperwork description of their child’s sex. It is a shocking, anti-safeguarding proposal to make, but cover it in silencing rainbow sparkles and what could possibly go wrong for children?

This Daily Mail article seems to be just the government again testing the water for not allowing children ( actually their parents Hmm) to change their child’s legal sex.

The government must know the voices of more detransitioned young people will be coming to the fore. So the government want to be able to say they haven’t been supporting the dangerous ‘affirmative‘ model (even though this still is being allowed to continue unchecked.. Hmm)

I’ve said it loads of times before but this NHS and private medical ‘treatment’ Hmm of children’s emotional distress and dysphoria needs Parliament to actually act to protect children. They need to have a parliamentary select committee inquiry into this whole area, with the evidence looked at from all sides. Then where children are currently not even being experimented on by NHS and private clinicians ( I say these are ‘Not even experiments’ because research studies which harm their participants can be stopped- whereas this just gallops on unchecked..) this ‘treatment’ of anyone under 25 and of vulnerable adults should be regulated by an Act of parliament requiring a government funded independent external body. Parliament needs to bring in laws to do that. These treatments should only ever be available case by case and on individual licence according to strict legal criteria and with the treatment agreed to by named doctors registered centrally and by the same law, the outcomes for anyone under 25 or a vulnerable adult who is given puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgical interventions, in the NHS or privately, should be as a group followed up via monitoring of their anonymised healthcare records.

There should also be a government commitment to fund follow up research for children and young people who have been through this, which is voluntary for them to participate in.

But of course all that will cost money to set up. The government haven’t even said they will invest more in CAMHS services to make sure distressed children currently can have somewhere to explore their problems away from the ‘affirmative’ medicalised approach. They could just bring in that tomorrow and make a massive difference.

There’s no new protections for children being offered here by government and already we can all see that children are being completely failed by the current system. I can only hope that the individual legal cases being brought by brave people at the moment will force them to act.

Also- in other ways like around the deliberately mis-described ‘spousal veto’ in the GRA.. this government clearly wants to appear to be socially ‘progressive’ or some shit where it costs them nothing. The government are are definitely not collectively taking a principled stance around upholding or extending women’s rights.

So we have to make sure they are listening to women and what we need, not just being distracted by the government ostentatiously letting us know they will not be indulging some of the most creepy and dangerous demands made by the TRA lobby.

We should all be writing encouraging letters to our MPs to get them to do more and ask for far more, because the government as a whole needs to do way more to change the terrible status quo.

ChattyLion · 23/02/2020 10:48

Also agreeing with PaleBlueMoonlight’s excellent point above that we need to see how the naive and obsolete GRA is being used to support human rights claims that people must as a human right be allowed to change legal sex and be treated as the opposite sex at all times.

GRA can’t ever be repealed unless this is clarified that human rights do not include the right to name yourself any protected characteristic of your choice and expect to receive the same protections or benefits available to people who actually share that protected characteristic. If any lawyers have thoughts on that I would be really interested to hear more.