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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons if they identify as female

999 replies

RoyalCorgi · 16/02/2020 19:16

Extraordinary.

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=oUon9j1zJ_E&

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 18/02/2020 12:09

Could you not frame it as more of a general thing, rather than your own opinion? something like, ‘I thought Nandy was best in that debate too, but I don’t think she’ll win, not after she said that stuff about male rapists being allowed to choose a women’s prison. I just can’t see members in traditional labour heartlands reacting positively’

——————

I’m actually dead proud of myself. I just posted on a local Labour cllrs personal Facebook status in reply to a neighbouring MP who is part of Starmer’s campaign (also posting from a personal account) saying ‘I was voting Nandy until she said ‘rapists should go to the prison of their choosing’ and that she and Long-Bailey wanted to expel women like me (women who think penises in women’s prisons are a bad idea). My vote for Starmer is begrudging and I would like that fed back to his campaign, please!’
Leader of our borough council is on the same thread.

Aesopfable · 18/02/2020 12:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Aesopfable · 18/02/2020 12:12

Reported myself for correctly sexing

R0wantrees · 18/02/2020 12:13

Surely its possible to ask if theyve seen Nandy's response to the three questions asked about the child rapist Christopher Worton?

Worton was convicted in 2014 of five counts of rape against a (female) child aged between 13 and 15 & was recently in court for breaching the requirements of a sexual harm prevention order (SHPO).

Worton assumed the name Zoe Lynes in 2017.

August 2018 Claude Knights (safeguarding expert & 15 years as head of Kidscape) on sex offenders who transition and are afforded the opportunity to change their name and hide their history as a consequence commenting on the case of "Christopher Noble, 32, transitioned to Christyl Knight while behind bars for keeping a stash of over 4,000 vile pictures and videos of kids as young as six months old"

“Allowing these individuals to hide a secret past is a dangerous practice.”
“Anyone who’s fuelled the vile trade in indecent images of children and therefore contributed to their sexual abuse should not be allowed to change their name.”

Source: www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3006679/paedophile-jailed-transgender-christyl-knight-christopher-nobile/

ThinEndoftheWedge · 18/02/2020 12:14

@Aesopfable

Shocking.

Placing rapists in the same cell as women - not a problem.

Michelleoftheresistance · 18/02/2020 12:16

Entirely clear that Mumsnet isn’t the place for a respectful debate about difficult issues.

Oh dear. I'll wipe away the tears of laughter. Robin you don't 'debate' in any way. Women have given you post after post trying to debate with you - with debate meaning putting points, expecting engagement, discussion, argument. You don't debate at all. All your posts - as has been explained to you many times on this thread, are condescending in tone, reply to almost nothing anyone has said (in fact several people have asked if you've actually read any of it), and merely state again how you require female people to centre you in their thinking, and be cooperative with your wishes, while unconditionally surrendering their own needs and interests. Which you make clear are unimportant to the point of total irrelevance. When they say no, and here's why, you say they won't respectfully debate.

Your concept of 'debate' is apparently submissive affirmation. As a barrister, you can't possibly be using this day to day in your daily life, so I can only imagine this is something you feel acceptable to do to females. Goodness knows you've provided plenty of evidence of your contempt for females in this thread, and your unwavering belief in your own greater importance and of females as a kind of service droid.

I'm sorry you feel the MN support humans are malfunctioning. As one of them, you may want to consider that I think you broadcast your misogyny far and wide, and have utter disrespect for those born female, and this is in large part why you're failing to find satisfaction when talking down to them. If you tried treating them as equals, you might get further.

Aesopfable · 18/02/2020 12:17

Why even on this thread is there still a tendency to centre men in the discussion (LN says male rapists should be locked up with women). We need to more firmly put the women at the centre here.

“Lisa Nandy says vulnerable women should be locked up in cells with rapists”

R0wantrees · 18/02/2020 12:19

No doubt all her social media comms are currently handled by her youngest, most wokeist campaign team members.

There's probably overlaps with those running/pushing the Labour Trans Pledge.

Michelleoftheresistance · 18/02/2020 12:21

And your 'difficult issues' incidentally are 'removing female people's rights and permitting people born male to use them in all public spaces regardless of their consent, feelings or own human needs'. While criminalising them protesting this.

Transwomen's needs must be able to be met without removing rights from females. Females having equal rights isn't a difficult or sensitive issue, it's terrifying that societal misogyny and belief in the inferiority of females is so strong that this is actually being considered as a viable thing for males to do. To meet the needs of other males.

R0wantrees · 18/02/2020 12:22

We need to more firmly put the women at the centre here.

“Lisa Nandy says vulnerable women should be locked up in cells with rapists”

Yes & how much clearer the serious issues would be if the rapists were able to be described as men?

FloralBunting · 18/02/2020 12:23

Why even on this thread is there still a tendency to centre men in the discussion (LN says male rapists should be locked up with women). We need to more firmly put the women at the centre here.

“Lisa Nandy says vulnerable women should be locked up in cells with rapists"

100% this, Aesopfable

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 18/02/2020 12:23

I have been told that one of the window bangers at the Brighton WPUK meeting is an employee in the constituency office of one of the deputy leadership candidates, so I suspect you are right regarding overlaps, R0.

GCAcademic · 18/02/2020 12:34

Yes, one of the window bangers works for Angela Rayner.

SophocIestheFox · 18/02/2020 12:51

Lisa Nandy says vulnerable women should be locked up in cells with rapists”

Excellent point, aesops, thank you for pointing that out.

Women front and centre in this, always. It’s so, so easy to get railroaded into focusing in the wrong direction.

I don’t want women to be at risk of being locked up with male bodies at all, ever and it is downright immoral to be discussing the possibility of that when those males have been convicted of rape.

The hurt feelings of those rapists count for nothing in this equation. They’re rapists for fucking fucks sake!

Michelleoftheresistance · 18/02/2020 12:54

Thinking further about why Robin would perceive this thread as not either 'respectful' or a 'debate': I wonder if TW, particularly those in higher level jobs and positions who often speak on behalf of gender identity activism, have become so used to being treated with overt displays of deference that this is their expectation of 'normal'. And 'debate' in their experience has been them stating their feelings and needs, with people carefully writing everything down and respectfully assuring them that they have been heard and everything will be done to accommodate them as very special and important people.

When they are met with people speaking to them with equality of expectation and manner, who expect reciprocal listening and equal consideration of need and interests, including the word 'no', it's a shock and appears disrespectful compared to what they are used to.

I believe everyone is a special and important person and solutions are only solutions if everyone's need is equally heard, respected and met. But I suspect Robin's idea of respect is one way only.

SarahTancredi · 18/02/2020 12:56

I wonder if TW, particularly those in higher level jobs and positions who often speak on behalf of gender identity activism, have become so used to being treated with overt displays of deference that this is their expectation of 'normal'. And 'debate' in their experience has been them stating their feelings and needs, with people carefully writing everything down and respectfully assuring them that they have been heard and everything will be done to accommodate them as very special and important people

I think theres a much simpler explanation tbh.

R0wantrees · 18/02/2020 12:57

11/2/2020 Tribune (long read) article by the chair of the Labour Campaign for Trans Rights which provides important background & context to the pledge.

'For Trans Liberation'
By
Torr Robinson
(extract)
"In any roadmap to trans liberation, we will require structures and organisations that we can utilise to empower us and carry the fight beyond individuals and even through generations. In Britain, it is most often the Labour Party which has taken this role. Rooted in the organised working class, Labour has the social depth and organisational scale to both build alliances amongst oppressed people and challenge the powerful. There is today no other Party in Britain that can facilitate the creation of organised trans power in our communities, whilst advancing us as part of a collective movement with the ultimate objective of winning power. That it is the best option in Britain’s political landscape is not, however, to say its commitment to liberation is unimpeachable; far from it.

All too often, rather than standing in its best traditions of human freedom and social good, the Labour Party has sought to manage away marginalised groups when inconvenient, and we have seen that same tendency towards trans people. Though MPs like Dawn Butler have taken a brave stand, transphobes have been able to organise freely throughout the party, in contravention of our own equalities policy, which already demonstrates a lack of commitment or concern in the party structures. Transphobes have taken advantage of this to apply pressure throughout those same structures, trading on the lies that are soaked into Britain’s politics in order to manufacture confusion.

Little effort has been made to counter these advances of transphobia in CLPs and in Parliament, with only a commitment to reforming the GRA – as the Tories once promised – binding party policy to our cause. Even this timid aim was called into question in the otherwise hopeful and inspiring 2019 manifesto, where it was directly accompanied by a commitment to preserve “single-sex spaces” as well as questionable language on the “cultural shift required”. Whilst the preservation of “single-sex spaces” would be meaningless legally, as single-sex spaces already include trans people with the Gender Recognition Certificates that GRA reform would make more accessible, the addition was nonetheless celebrated by transphobes.

The contesting of this pledge between various interpretations followed, as the party and its representatives provided multiple, incompatible readings which fluctuated between transphobic and trans-inclusive versions. Whilst the true meaning intended by those who signed off on the wording may be impossible to know, it is emblematic of the equivocal and contingent regard, or disregard, that party structures hold towards trans rights. Such a situation suggests that the party’s highest bodies may be vulnerable to the growing influence of transphobia, even if it is a transphobia disguised by the alt-right tactics of utilising unclear language and plausible deniability to advance their cause." (continues)

For this to happen, we will need to organise to remove transphobes and transphobia throughout the party. The NEC must be pressured to act against transphobic individuals and incidents, just as it does in other cases of discrimination. Support for organisations like Woman’s Place, which hate us for being trans, can no longer be considered consistent with the values of socialism and liberation. We should strive not only to change the bureaucracy, but to have trans members and allies in every CLP winning the fight for trans rights, and ready to combat lies like the notion that women’s rights and trans rights are in opposition, or that there is any alignment between transphobia and socialism." (continues)

tribunemag.co.uk/2020/02/the-labour-campaign-for-trans-rights

Jaxhog · 18/02/2020 12:59

Well, if Nandy really believes this, she can prove it by volunteering to spend a week in a wing with transwomen sex offenders. Locked in. After all, the risks can be managed perfectly well, and transwomen are women, and anyone objecting is a bigot. Right?

Why just a week?

SingingLily · 18/02/2020 13:08

I wonder if TW, particularly those in higher level jobs and positions who often speak on behalf of gender identity activism, have become so used to being treated with overt displays of deference that this is their expectation of 'normal'.

I used to have managerial responsibility for a range of different professions working in prisons. One of those was the Chaplaincy: ministers and priests of all the main religions. Their fallings-out were frequent and deep-rooted but, curiously, were never about ecumenical or other differences in credo or dogma. They were entirely about who was top dog.

Regardless of how they dressed, they just couldn't let go of the need to be regarded by everyone as having ultimate authority over all they surveyed.

None of them were women.

SophocIestheFox · 18/02/2020 13:21

I’ve gone and had a dig to try to find people who think Lisa is right on this.

I can’t find anyone. The closest there seems to be is tweets from people who think the issue is that Julia Long asked the question, which then mostly descend into ad hominens on Julia. Or the old favourite of “women rape too, so women already get locked up with rapists”. There’s a light sprinkling of “this will never happen”. Or there’s a bit of obfuscation (I’m calling it the White Strategy) of leaping off onto an entirely unrelated topic, or just saying “this is not up for debate because it’s HATEFUL and you’re RUDE for mentioning it”.

But nobody’s standing up and saying “yes, Lisa is correct, if a trans woman is convicted of rape, then that persons crimes should be reported as having been committed by a woman, and they should be allowed to choose to enter a women’s prison”. It’s tumbleweed over at Pink News.

Has Lisa topped out on the purity spiral and gone off the reservation? Where are her defenders? She’s swinging in the wind here as far as I can make out.

OldCrone · 18/02/2020 13:32

Thanks for that link R0wantrees

I haven't read the whole article, but these two sentences seem to contradict each other.

Whilst the preservation of “single-sex spaces” would be meaningless legally, as single-sex spaces already include trans people with the Gender Recognition Certificates that GRA reform would make more accessible, the addition was nonetheless celebrated by transphobes.

We should strive not only to change the bureaucracy, but to have trans members and allies in every CLP winning the fight for trans rights, and ready to combat lies like the notion that women’s rights and trans rights are in opposition, or that there is any alignment between transphobia and socialism.

Their position seems to be: "We want to make GRCs available on demand, meaning any man can become legally female and single sex spaces will no longer exist, but this doesn't affect women's rights".

Mockersisrightasusual · 18/02/2020 13:39

...strive/win/fight/combat lies, etc.

This is not the language of politics which is the accomodation of difference. This is all about the elimination of all dissent. It is the language of a Marxist revolution, with the usual results of plenty of broken eggs but no omlette.

TimeLady · 18/02/2020 13:40

Taken from an article in October 2019, p79, regarding White's first day at work after surgery in 2011:

indd.adobe.com/view/555ccd58-1fd7-4dae-b545-043723d3e299

Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons if they identify as female
Datun · 18/02/2020 13:44

Entirely clear that Mumsnet isn’t the place for a respectful debate about difficult issues.

Which I translate as you women are not obeying me.

I agree with Michelle. Women being non-compliant equals lack of respect in Robin's head. You might as well get used to it, Robin. You see that big lump on the horizon? That's critical mass, and it's almost here.

StealthPolarBear · 18/02/2020 13:48

"
I'm sorry you feel the MN support humans are malfunctioning"
:o
Be nice, be kind..