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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Virtue signalling coward' Labour's war escalates

225 replies

BovaryX · 16/02/2020 08:21

The Labour war over the trans pledge has escalated, with Rebecca LB et al accused of virtue signalling cowardice. Also, the decision to allow self identified 'women' onto women's only Labour shortlists is going to be legally challenged. Labour have created this absurdity and now the laughable contradictions will be exposed to public scrutiny and ridicule.

Labour’s civil war over transgender rights descended into even deeper bitterness last night after one of Jeremy Corbyn’s senior aides called leadership hopeful Rebecca Long Bailey a ‘virtue-signalling coward’ for threatening to expel feminists from the party – and a crowdfunded legal challenge was mounted against the party

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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thecatfromjapan · 16/02/2020 12:28

I think the pledge was put together by the group Heather Peto is a member of.

Would that be right?

SingingLily · 16/02/2020 12:30

I wonder if she would have done that if she'd kept her seat?

I rather think she would, Cat.

That quote was itself lifted from a 2000 word article she wrote about why Labour lost the election and such a significant chunk of its traditional voters.

Whatever anyone thinks of the Lord Ashcroft report, this particular finding is echoed by Laura Pidcock's analysis. As a significant figure in Momentum still, she would know the prevailing opinion. As a former MP - and more specifically, a woman MP - she would be only too well aware of the special level of vitriolic that would be dumped over her.

Yet she said it.

She also said quite clearly that women need their same sex spaces.

I never expected to find myself in agreement with Laura Pidcock - we do not share the same political views - but in this, I stand shoulder to shoulder with her. In fact, I salute her courage.

Destinysdaughter · 16/02/2020 12:30

Unusually, even the Guardian is reporting on this!

"Labour leadership candidates who signed a pledge calling several organisations “trans-exclusionist hate groups” are facing demands to produce evidence for the allegation.

A row over a pledge card drawn up by the Labour Campaign for Trans Rights group broke out last week after Rebecca Long-Bailey, Emily Thornberry and Lisa Nandy, as well as deputy leadership candidates Angela Rayner and Dawn Butler, all expressed support for the charter. It calls on Labour to expel “transphobic” members, and describes campaigns including Woman’s Place UK as “trans-exclusionist hate groups”.

Woman’s Place UK has now written to the leadership figures demanding to see the evidence behind the claim. The group has also written to the candidates who have not signed the pledge, asking to meet them to discuss the growing row. It said none of the candidates had yet replied.,"

www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/16/labour-candidates-called-on-to-justify-transphobia-claims

DrudgeJedd · 16/02/2020 12:32

I think that one of them is actually a teacher. I can't believe serious politicians let themselves be played by this tiny clique.

thecatfromjapan · 16/02/2020 12:33

Thanks for that, SingingLily.

'I never expected to find myself in agreement with Laura Pidcock - we do not share the same political views - but in this, I stand shoulder to shoulder with her. In fact, I salute her courage.'

I agree with you.

noblegiraffe · 16/02/2020 12:48

I can't believe serious politicians let themselves be played by this tiny clique.

But they’re not allowed to hear anything else. I’ve just had a look at twitter and it’s not just celebrities that are being targeted for following Graham Linehan, it’s his entire list. I’ve seen internet randoms giving explanations about how they will continue following him because they don’t want an echo chamber feed and apologising to people who have unfollowed them because they follow him and saying that they totally understand their reasons for doing so.

What are the other side doing? Even the organisations that have been set up are immediately designated hate groups so can’t get off the ground as their message will be deemed toxic before its even written. Politicians are being attacked for meeting them.

The narrative is being controlled in an extremely coordinated way.

Xanthangum · 16/02/2020 12:53

it shows they haven’t an original thought in their head and would vote for making everyone paint their backsides blue today if #bluebumsunday was trending.

Just seen the key word "if".

Dammit.

Anyone got any turpentine?

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 16/02/2020 12:54

The narrative is being controlled in an extremely coordinated way.

It is, apart from in public, people are talking, this is spreading and it can't be controlled in real life. It's why it's so important to talk about it with real people.

Violetparis · 16/02/2020 13:05

Great posts on this thread SingingLily, it is about a democratic process, shutting women out of this process and insulting them as bigots will back fire. Good on Laura Pidcock for speaking out, I wonder how many Labour MPs agree with her and aren't speaking out. I agree this has the potential to be a huge problem for Labour.

R0wantrees · 16/02/2020 13:23

Daily Mail article cited previously:
Writing on his personal blog, Mr Stuart also renewed his criticisms of Dawn Butler, the shadow Equalities Minister.

The two were last year embroiled in a bizarre row when Stuart ridiculed Butler’s claims that most male giraffes are gay, something she said justified gay equality laws.

During the General Election campaign last year, Ms Butler was one of several senior figures who criticised the party’s official position on trans rights and equality law, which activists described as transphobic.

Mr Stuart revealed that in a private meeting to agree policies before the Election, Butler had voted for the very policies she later criticised.

He said: ‘Dawn, who held the portfolio responsibility and had to respond to all the proposed amendments... And Dawn just said, “Agreed”.’

29/10/2019 Guardian
'Are 90% of giraffes gay – or have their loving looks been misunderstood?
Dawn Butler’s claims regarding animal sexuality have been called ‘offensive’ and ‘homophobic’ by one of Jeremy Corbyn’s advisers. But what’s the scientific verdict?
(extract)
" A new split has emerged in the Labour party over a matter more urgent than Brexit: the sexuality of giraffes. “Ninety per cent of giraffes are gay,” Dawn Butler, the shadow secretary for women and equalities, told a PinkNews awards event earlier this month. “Let’s just accept people for who they are and live as our true, authentic selves.”

Butler’s words were meant as praise for the school curriculum, which teaches children that it is normal for people to be gay. However, Jeremy Corbyn’s senior domestic policy adviser, Lachlan Stuart, responded angrily on Twitter over what he felt it also meant about gay people. “It is a ludicrous, offensive, homophobic claim,” Stuart said, insisting instead that the same-sex physical contact observed between giraffes in the wild is “not gay behaviour” at all, but a display of dominance.

According to Stephanie Fennessy, director of the Giraffe Conservation Foundation in Namibia, Stuart is right. “While I totally agree with Dawn Butler’s comment that we should accept people for who they are, she is incorrect in her comment that giraffes are gay,” Fennessy says. “Sometimes they fake-hump each other, which is also dominance behaviour. Dogs do that as well. And when you see them necking, it’s fighting. It’s vicious. They can kill each other.” (continues)
www.theguardian.com/science/shortcuts/2019/oct/29/99-per-cent-giraffes-gay-loving-looks-misunderstood

17/10/2019 Dawn Butler MP Shadow Minister for Women & Equalities speech at Pink News event.
(worth watching, not just for the giraffe reference but her apparent absolute dismissal of any Safeguarding or Women's Rights conflicts with gender self id policy)

"[Lachlan] Stuart called giraffes his “favourite animal,” and explained that what Butler was referring to was actually “not gay behaviour” because “there's no romance. No courtship. No affection. No pair bonding.”

Instead, Stuart said, giraffes engage in non-consensual sexual activity to establish dominance over each other.

“It's akin to describing [the 1972 movie] Deliverance as a 'gay romance' because the effete city boys are put in their place by the locals by getting beaten and then raped,” Stuart tweeted.

He added, “I'm really sick and tired now of straight, white, male, young advisers (and that's who they all are) delivering such foolish words into the mouths of people I'm supposed to respect.”
www.out.com/politics/2019/10/28/british-politicians-are-fighting-over-giraffe-sexuality

ChicChicChicChiclana · 16/02/2020 13:27

I voted Labour with a heavy heart (due to the anti-women thinking) in the GE. Shan't be making that mistake again.

Lordfrontpaw · 16/02/2020 13:30

Giraffes? Giraffes? Is she having a bloody giraffe?

noblegiraffe · 16/02/2020 13:32

I, for one, approve of giraffe-based policy-making.

R0wantrees · 16/02/2020 13:38

noblegiraffe
Yes giraffes must be free to be their true authentic selves. Im sure a great deal of policy is likely giraffe-exclusionary.
Grin

thecatfromjapan · 16/02/2020 13:46
Grin
thecatfromjapan · 16/02/2020 13:48

Poor Lachlan.

I sense he's had to put up with too much foolishness for far longer than a sane person can bear.

midgebabe · 16/02/2020 13:49

is she having a giraffe

How dare she or you presume the species , it should be free to chose its own identity

borntobequiet · 16/02/2020 13:50

I don’t agree with much, if anything, of what Theresa May believes, has said and done, and I disagree with Caroline Lucas on some issues. But they are serious politicians with principles and the ability to think logically. They shouldn’t be lumped in with the pathetic female candidates for the Labour leadership.

Michelleoftheresistance · 16/02/2020 13:52

Giraffes... burble.... clownfish.... burble.... do this because armadillos.... burble.....

Its bloody gobsmacking. Lions led by donkeys indeed. This is where the lions get a grip and eat the donkeys.

#bluebumsunday

#Wrong-Daily and NandyPandy

#thereisnotenoughgininBritaintokeepmytemperwiththisshit

Michelleoftheresistance · 16/02/2020 13:56

Look, if the giraffe identifies as being in a loving relationship with the giraffe it's just mutilated and murdered, you're being a bigot who ought to be made to face Lloyd Beardface and explain yourself in great detail before he gets the stasi to shoot you for being female at him

Sex positivity for pete's sake. The dead giraffe probably consented and loved being murdered. (Or was female and thought it should have rights and so deserved it). Anyway, CLOWNFISH prove it.

andyoldlabour · 16/02/2020 14:01

borntobequiet

Caroline Lucas a serious politician with principles and the ability to think logically?
Seriously?
Did you miss the whole Aimeeee Challenor fiasco?

R0wantrees · 16/02/2020 14:07

During the General Election campaign last year, Ms Butler was one of several senior figures who criticised the party’s official position on trans rights and equality law, which activists described as transphobic.

Mr Stuart revealed that in a private meeting to agree policies before the Election, Butler had voted for the very policies she later criticised.

He said: ‘Dawn, who held the portfolio responsibility and had to respond to all the proposed amendments... And Dawn just said, “Agreed”.’

14 February 2020 Dawn Butler MP article Metro
'Why I’m running to be deputy leader of the Labour Party'
(extract)

"The prospect of another five years with Conservatives in power is devastating for me, but in difficult times I always try and remember in the words of Labi Siffre: ‘The further you take my rights away the faster I will run’.

The autopsy on why we lost will take time and there are no easy answers, but this should not stop Labour from developing a strategy to win again. I am a fighter and a winner and I always say: don’t lose, learn. It is for this reason I am running for deputy leader and am determined to ensure that the recent election is the last time we lose. (continues)

And we will Educate. We need an educational programme designed by people with lived experience, with Labour values at the core. This comprehensive guide will include training on anti-Semitism, racism against African-Caribbean people (sometimes called Afrophobia), transphobia, misogyny, homophobia and any other type of bullying and oppression. There will also be mental health and disability awareness training. This strategy will help us build as we campaign and as we win" (continues)

Key to delivering this strategy will be discipline. We must show the public that we can unite once again take on the Tories. I have worked with people from across our party and have the temperament to bring people back together. (continues)

In doing so, I will promote a strong message discipline, which we have lacked. As the only candidate who has served under two Labour prime ministers, as well as in Jeremy Corbyn’s shadow cabinet, I am well positioned to unite the party, which is essential if we are going to win again (continues)

metro.co.uk/2020/02/14/im-running-deputy-leader-labour-party-12204676/

Hmm Hmm

LangCleg Fri 22-Nov-19 wrote:
"Just seen this [screenshot] from Labour Press Office. Very mixed messages going out. I'm assuming that some serious tribal infighting has broken out within Labour as a result of this manifesto promise.

Yes. It'll be like the early days of Corbyn all over again. They'll all be contradicting each other wherever you look.

Nobody votes for a party that does that, whatever the issue.

I despair."

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3749319-Labour-promises-to-keep-single-sex-exemptions?pg=10#prettyPhoto/0/

'Virtue signalling coward' Labour's war escalates
borntobequiet · 16/02/2020 14:08

Gender issues are where I think Lucas is seriously deluded. Green issues, she’s good.

R0wantrees · 16/02/2020 14:15

Poor Lachlan.

I sense he's had to put up with too much foolishness for far longer than a sane person can bear.

I think he's a thoroughly decent man with a great deal of integrity, insight & compassion.

He wrote this recently:
'My own boy’s own story'

"This story culls heavily from one of my more popular Twitter threads, which I wrote after some time engaged in the recent gender debates, when I started to make contact with detransitioned lesbians and recognised lots of the things they were saying to me.
My unqualified but careful reading of DSM-V suggests to me that I’d have met enough criteria for a diagnosis of both early-onset or late-onset gender dysphoria, had the medical world of my childhood and youth been what it is today. The prospect horrifies me and terrifies me. As my way of standing in solidarity with those lesbians I was speaking to at the time, I wrote this and had it as my pinned tweet for a year or so.

Some friends were surprised I shared such personal details in public; some strangers thought it was bold and brave to say these things from my position of public prominence and vulnerability to media intrusion (I didn’t lock my account back in those days). I was bemused by both those reactions: it was, admittedly, only much later that I discussed in public the detail of the mental health and psychiatric supervision I experienced around puberty — in part because it was only partly related to what I write here but also because that is much more private. This stuff, however. I couldn’t be any less ashamed of or embarrassed by this. It seemed to touch a nerve with many people, and in turn I was myself touched by the many sweet, lovely messages I received — mostly from women who had been tomboys — after publishing it." (continues)
medium.com/@lachlanstuart/my-own-boys-own-story-c0f01fdede39

Wine Lachlan

SoftDay · 16/02/2020 14:31

thecatfromjapan, your post at 9.44.46 is profoundly insightful and has resonated so strongly with me. I have copied it for future reference. Thank you. Goddess bless the wise women of FWR.

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