So much confusion over transgender issues

[Shockedandbefuddled]

Hello - I realise I am here under a new user name.

I am now on a feminist board, having never described myself as a feminist.

My university friends would laugh wildly to hear me described as such.

I feel strongly transgender people need to be looked after and are vulnerable. I do not believe acknowledging transgender people exist poses a threat to womanhood.

However, I am scared that there are a lot of bad men, perverts, abusers and fetishists out in the world (far more than transgender people) who could abuse self ID.

I’m afraid to post this away from Feminist boards because of the backlash but am genuinely confused how the argument has become so fractured.

I think its ok to say I want full support for transgender people but it cannot be at the expense of women, kids, those of religious belief etc?

See robin, this is the incoherence.

You knowledge that the women here are uncomfortable with men in their changing rooms.

I see that the usual pile-on is now beginning to occur.

But then assert that you still do it,

During transition I could be said to have been self-IDing to gain access to those spaces. Your position would be that I should then (and still) should be excluded?

and act wide-eyed wondering whether or not the women here want to exclude you.

Having already just acknowledged all the comments saying exactly that.

It's extraordinary.

*Acknowledge, not knowledge

There were 60 transwomen in jail for sexual offences in 2016.

And about twice that number of transwomen in jail in total. In other words, half of the transwomen in prison were sex offenders.

midge you didn’t fail her
Sounds like her parents might have though.

So the difference is if they had had surgery? Is it because you're worried your children will see a penis in a female changing room? Personally I would explain to my children that the person considered themselves trans and that would be it. If the fear of a penis is rape then people can still rape without having a penis

Starting to wonder. Can a parent really think this way? Really?
"It's ok, girls. That is a female penis." Nope, can't think of anyone I know who would say that. And the next sentence...well. How many ways are you going to find to allow women's and girl's spaces to be invaded?

There is plainly something of a difference between department store changing rooms and, say, a woman's refuge about the intended level of protection for vulnerable individuals and some proprtionaity has to come into any sensible debate.

The 'intended level of protection' in single sex spaces is to ensure that such spaces are for females & that males are excluded. This is a Safeguarding measure intended to protect women & girls' safety, dignity & privacy.
On occasions, it may be neccessary for a male to be present & as such its usual for the females to be advised. Hence in motorway services there will be an advisory sign in women's toilets that a male member of staff is cleaning & in refuges women are often (used to be?) given notice if a male is in the building for maintenence etc. This gives women an informed choice whether to be in intimate spaces when a male is present.

For those who dont understand/refuse to accept the Safeguarding principles which inform the need to protect all intimate female single sex spaces, Tracy Shaw from Safe Schools Alliance explains this very clearly.

What would a penis be doing in a female changing room?

One would like to think it would be keeping its head down.

Metaphorically and literally.

You may not call it rape if a penis is not involved but forced penetration is just as harmful to a victim except for the risk of getting pregnant. It is still abuse.

Clearly some people feel more comfortable than others changing in the same space as a male or transperson and that's just down to the individual. Maybe that's why I'm not getting this because I don't feel the fear. I am a fairly trusting person but I think atm society is becoming more openly prejudiced largely due to our current leaders and their influence.

I don't feel the fear
Again, then, why did you teach your daughters not to change in communal areas? And feel 'lucky' that they follow that rule?

Oh is this the line that women can do bad things as well as men so there no reason to treat them differently?

Yet if we knew that plane of type a crashed every 10 flights, whereas planes of type b crashed every thousand flights we would treat planes of type a and type b differently

You may not call it rape if a penis is not involved but forced penetration is just as harmful to a victim except for the risk of getting pregnant. It is still abuse.

Of course. But it's worth noting that if someone has been convicted of rape, it involves a penis.

And you may well not feel the fear. But 20% of women will it be sexually assaulted/raped during their lifetime. So there are very many women who do feel the fear. And are not comfortable with either they or their daughters in mixed sex changing rooms.

It's not that difficult to understand, surely.

And there are just as many women who prefer the privacy of a female only space when their knickers around their ankles, they're taking off their clothes, or they are incarcerated and can't escape.

@releasethehounds how comfortable would you feel changing next to the man who flashed you? Or a man who has flashed other women and girls?

I see that the usual pile-on is now beginning to occur. I regularly use different sports facilities which have both segregated and 'village style' change. I have to admit that before, during or after transition, I have never come across inappropriate behaviour. So my view is that it must be very rare indeed.

Ask women & they will no doubt share the many times that males have behaved inappropriately where girls & women are changing.

My first experience was in the last year of Primary School. We noticed there was a hole in the wooden partition between the girls & boys' swimming pool changing rooms. We blocked the hole with tissue paper. Everytime we used the room we checked before undressing, the block had been pushed out from the other side nearly every time, so we replaced it.

2 September 2018 Independent
'UNISEX CHANGING ROOMS PUT WOMEN AT DANGER OF SEXUAL ASSAULT, DATA REVEALS'
(extract)
The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.

The data, obtained through a Freedom of Information request by the Sunday Times, suggests that unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities.

Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities.

What’s more, two thirds of all sexual attacks at leisure centres and public swimming pools take place in unisex changing rooms." (continues)
www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

@OldCrone in fairness, I didn't cite that because there were no figures kept unless the crime meant a longish sentence, so there will have been far more transwomen in jail at some point than that. Sexual offending serious enough for a custodial sentence will be recorded, when eg a recidivist shoplifter serving a few weeks might not be. So that half being sex offending is actually half of serious convictions, which may be more statistically average amongst male offenders.

Of course, that may mean a lower overall risk of sexual offending, but only because it seriously under-records a group's criminality in other contexts. Either few transwomen offend, but those who do are highly likely to be sex offenders, or transwomen offend at standard male rates overall. The one in fifty, more recent figure, suggests the latter I think.

We simply don't know the convictions of those 1 in 50. It's not information in the public domain. And again, in fairness, there's no way to know how many of those claiming to be trans are truly so, and how many are just men abusing the system in hopes of some advantage.

Which brings us neatly back to self ID.

Hounds also equates fear with prejudice
Where fear is unjustified, then it is evidence of prejudice

The fear women have of men is not however unjustified. The statistics show that a large proportion of women have been subjected to a sexual assault. By men. It doesn't take much to see that many men view women as pieces of meat to be ogled at and taunted.

even if you have never experienced something, listen to those who have

Some key differences between Male on Male violence and Male on female violence is that female victims have no chance to defend themselves, are often not believed, justice is very hard to obtain.

Hence the separation of males and females in some cases, to protect those that can be protected, and help them participate fully in society without justified fear

I don't think people are "openly prejudiced" when they dislike a penis in women's spaces. I think it is fairly normal. Some people do prefer the non-normative, but they are usually male.

Find out why we have sex segregated spaces and what existed before them.
Find out the difference in numbers between assaults in mixed sex changing and same sex changing and which sex is the victim and the offender.
Find out what is covered in single sex exemptions in the equalities act and think about why these exemptions were put in.
Think about how data on sex proves inequity or differences and how this is used to produce interventions, policies, treatment appropriate and useful for the groups identified.
Think about vulnerable people of both sexes and why they are more at risk than the rest.
Think about biology and how it is different for men and women and where that matters. For healthcare, for safety and fairness in sport, for safety at work, life insurance, car insurance, for appropriate differentiation in a million different areas.
Think about how recently in overall history adult women gained financial autonomy and the right to not be sacked if pregnant and all the other laws put in specifically to protect from sex discrimination because it is a problem big enough to require legislation.

Now think about how those change if anyone, male or female can fully and completely opt in to the opposite sex on a part or full time basis with no legal process.

Hows it looking for everyone? And I do mean everyone. Safer, better, improved, no downside, no increased risk?

If the answer isn’t everyone is at least in the same position as before then it needs more thought.

A legitimate concern, but:

Robin, there should be no 'but' after 'a legitimate concern' about the safety of women. 'NO' is enough. It is not to be followed by a-d of 'fix this problem for me then we'll talk'.

If you are a TW I do not consent to your presence in female-only spaces. Not because you are trans but because you are male. It's not personal, I do not consent to the presence of any males in female spaces.

Why do you think female spaces exist in the first place?

Rufflecrow- I find your post quite hostile, was it intended that way?

I have clarified my poor choice in words re being looked after. I have, as previously stated, witnessed anti trans discrimination particularly with regard to employment so I believe it is a real, valid concern.

Just because I have never chosen to describe myself as a feminist does not mean I have not fought for women’s rights and have no regard for women’s issues.

Several of my uni housemates would laugh at me describing myself as such because I am not radical enough for them. However I see feminism as a broad movement, simply haven’t felt the need to label myself.

I feel I now need to rethink. Suddenly people who were previously the loudest advocates for women’s and children’s rights now want to no platform people and refuse any discussion. As my opening post I am confused as to how and why this is happening.

Thank you to the posters who have posted interesting and useful thoughts and links which are helping me to understand how we have come to this point.

Interesting isn't it that in a feminist forum discussing transgender issues, we never have the transman coming to find advise about how to get men to treat them as a man, how to cope with having a female body in a male changing area. It's never about how to support transmen,

Clearly some people feel more comfortable than others changing in the same space as a male or transperson and that's just down to the individual. Maybe that's why I'm not getting this because I don't feel the fear. I am a fairly trusting person

Maybe you are unaware of the extent & impact of male violence against women & girls?
Regardless of the reasons, its surprising the lack of concern/empathy for women & girls who have been abused by males & so depend on female single sex spaces being protected.

release, I sincerely hope that respecting men, including those with fully functioning male genitalia who choose to get changed in communal changing rooms with women and girls, which could include your DDs will keep you all safe. Generally speaking, appeasing men by letting them do whatever they want has NOT worked for any other women throughout history but you are, of course, welcome to continue with your magical thinking. May your DDs stay safe despite your teachings ...

Too many questions to answer whilst I'm rushing about but just briefly 1) yes I'm really a parent and I do think like this and 2) I never said anywhere that I discouraged my children from undressing in communal areas so I'm not sure where that came from!

Too many questions to answer whilst I'm rushing about but just briefly 1) yes I'm really a parent and I do think like this and

Sorry that was me. Just genuinely couldn't see it, but ok!

Just because I have never chosen to describe myself as a feminist does not mean I have not fought for women’s rights and have no regard for women’s issues.

Don't worry, there are plenty of women on this board who don't necessarily describe themselves as feminists but are passionate advocates for women's rights.