Nandy on R4

[poshme]

Just missed it but DH messaged me- she was asked about women's place apparently. She's still on but moved on to different topic.

He says worth listening again...

[ThinEndoftheWedge]

Lisa - the needs of one trans girl/women in her constituency out-ways the needs of every other girl/woman in her constituency.

Trans girls/women need care compassion and tailored evidence based healthcare. This can be done without trampling in the rights of the 51%.

Sex is real, science is real, girls and women are real.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

Starmer is as bad as any of them; he's just bright enough not to open his mouth until he's got what he wants.

I always really, deep down, thought it was a lack of thinking things through. That no one could really be consciously, deliberately this hating of women (particularly other women), this unfair, this unjust, stand behind something so basically morally wrong. And I'm not talking about trans, nothing to do with trans, I'm talking about the moral wrongness of removing rights from women. 50% of the bloody country.

It's very clear now it's not that they don't understand or know what they are doing. They are just so soaked in their warped values that they believe harming women and hating on women having rights is a virtuous thing to do. Can anyone think of any other societies where people have warped a political belief into 'harming and dehumanising and taking rights from x group/groups in our society is a good thing to serve our political vision'?

I can think of several. I'm just lost in disbelief this can happen.

[LatinforTelly]

I feel a bit freaked out by all this tbh.

The fact that they are doubling down shows that these four politicians have not given this issue one minute of constructive thought, not considered calmly any of the points that are made so reasonably and eloquently by feminists. Not taken seriously the point that men as a sex class impose risk of violence on women as a sex class.

This. What HumphreyCobblers said. Except that I think Starmer understands. He will be as vague as he can get away with to get him through the leadership race. How fucking depressing though that none of the women get it.

[littlbrowndog]

Yeah Michelle

It’s like women and girls are just to be irrelevant to labour and snp politicians

We are fine to be used when they want to talk about us as victims

But treated as people with rights. Nope

[magicrainbowbeans]

In agreement with the above.

He needs to lead a fucking common sense revolution if he ever wants to be PM though he won't. None of them will ever, ever stand a remote chance of becoming PM. And as things stand the Labour Party doesn't stand a chance of getting back into Government in any of our lifetimes.

[YasssKween]

I agree that WPUK and LGB Alliance should consider a libel action.

I am so angry. I've been angry about this before.

I am so sad. I've been so sad about this before.

This is the first time I've been this scared.

Who else will they expel?

They must know that the percentage of the electorate who don't agree with their stance on this is greater than the percentage who do agree. They must know this.

They've ruined their chances. They've made this a hill to die on and they've made their choice.

They don't care about us.

[littlbrowndog]

They don’t like women talking. Gathering. Having meetings

Having opinions

[AnotherNightWatering]

The Labour Campaign for Trans Rights pledges are insane - particularly: "Organise and fight against transphobic organisations such as Woman’s Place UK, LGB Alliance and other trans-exclusionist hate groups."

Do we know exactly who the originators are? I feel it's almost like a spoof designed to catch out the "woke". I can't really believe the group exists. Still, I find it even harder to believe politicians have signed it.

[Michelleoftheresistance]

We always knew they didn't like it.

They're now perfectly open about the fact that in their minds, women talking, gathering mentioning having rights, meeting, is wrong, is in itself hateful and should not be allowed .

They could not have made it any fucking clearer.

[AnotherNightWatering]

No, it does exist You can sign it here, and your constituency labour party is a required field... so you can be expelled if you don't sign it, maybe...

docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd_wPyenUicSJgKv1YTknZ47gDGU4b_389zYbqH10TGSTRrpg/viewform

[Imnobody4]

Can't WPUK demand a slot on the Today programme to respond?

[flowery]

I was really hoping against hope that Keir Starmer might still show an ounce of intelligence and critical thinking but apparently not.

He also thinks that any bloke who fancies wandering round the Center Parcs Spa changing rooms while I’m naked in there next week should be able to rock up, announce he’s a woman and wander in at his leisure. Cheers Keir.

[AbsintheFriends]

It's very clear now it's not that they don't understand or know what they are doing. They are just so soaked in their warped values that they believe harming women and hating on women having rights is a virtuous thing to do

I don't disagree, but I think a lack of intellect is behind it too. Lisa Nandy has placed the poor, demonised transitioner in her constituency at the centre of both of her answers to this question in prime time slots. It's clear that this one struggling young teen with whom she has personal involvement has informed her view of the ENTIRE issue. She has made up her mind and closed it off. She actively doesn't want to hear anything that will challenge the opinion that she has set in stone. She is alight with virtuous certainty - she KNOWS she is right because she knows this person and is touched by their situation, and if all us bigots knew them too we would think the same as her.

That demonstrates a lack of ability to think, analyse, extrapolate, research, challenge, see the bigger picture and join dots.

What it also suggests to me is that, when she speaks about hate and discrimination, she has a particular type of woman in mind. She isn't thinking of women of different faiths, women with disabilities, women whose lives have been destroyed by violence, childhood sexual abuse or domestic abuse. Women like the ones Lucy McDonagh from the Deptford Project described, who face multiple disadvantages. I'd say the woman Lisa is picturing when she spits out accusations of hate is a middle class stereotype - the mythical 'can I speak to the manager' type so beloved by ageist wokescolds and misogynists.

Lack of intelligence. Lack of insight. Lack of any shred of leadership ability.

[jhuizinga]

I haven't listened to Lisa Nandy yet and will try to do so later. I am, however, currently listening to Women's Hour. They replayed an interview with Barbara Castle on the fight for equal pay. It's incredibly depressing to contrast her attitude with that of today's Labour women politicians who don't care that including men in the group called women means we will never be able to determine if there is equal pay between the sexes or not. The other thing that stood out for me was that the term gender was not used only sex.

[Doyoumind]

If you start from the position that TWAW you are focusing on males and forgetting completely that there are females who are trans men. So males are the most important and the only ones worth talking about? Even if they believe in that shit, do none of them see what they are doing when they focus on TW?

[Justhadathought]

But the truth is that I largely just feel liberated from loyalty to a party that's been taken over and destroyed by woke teenagers and lefty dude bros (and those in thrall to them)

I agree! It's liberating to be free of the constraints of party political loyalty...with having to filter everything you think or feel through a sieve of correct thinking. This applies to many issues, though, not just the trans issue/women's rights. It is all far too tribal.

[Doyoumind]

I know from our perspective it's males who pose a threat by the way. But if they don't really pose a threat why only talk about them and not trans people in general?

[IfNot]

RE being a Labour member-I have never filtered anything I have said. It just never occurred to me! We need a fuck of a lot LESS filtering and more truth.

[Justhadathought]

RE being a Labour member-I have never filtered anything I have said. It just never occurred to me! We need a fuck of a lot LESS filtering and more truth


The best way to achieve that, though, is through letting go of party affiliations......Having grown up with a very politically astute Labour voting father, na d having spent many years engaged in various political struggles - aligned to left/liberal issues...I'm aware of how it becomes almost second nature to automatically adopt certain stances.......to make excuses for the events that don't conform......and to try to shoe-horn them into their correct shape or position.

[Imnobody4]

The Labour Party is now just a cult. Never settle for evidence based policy making when parroting a mantra will do.

[womaninblue]

In this household we are more angry that we can express. To have female politicians who would describe themselves as feminists parroting TWAW and supporting the expulsion of feminist women who hold perfectly rational, science-based, feminist views that do no harm to anyone is completely dystopian.

I agree with those who are scared. If Nandy et al genuinely believe this then what the hell are we doing with such thoughtless, dim people in positions of power and how on earth can we be asked to trust and respect politicians? If they don't believe it and are just saying it because of the fear of a Twitter backlash then what hope can we have that they'll stand up for anything? If the rights of 51% of their voters aren't enough to motivate them then what is?

[theflushedzebra]

They're all on Vic Derbyshire - I'm watching it in rewind.

I'm sorry, but they are all beyond useless. I wouldn't vote for any of them. Even Keir - once a pretty good ally to women's issues when he was in the CPS - has lost the plot.

I'm shocked at their complete lack of leadership skills actually, lack of passion, dynamism, inspiration. They just do not instil confidence at all.

A load of useless soundbites where they all agree "we've got to listen more" and they're all apologising for the result all over the shop....practically prostrating themselves before the audience of their lost voters Jeez. Bloody useless.

[Lordfrontpaw]

#labourisdead

[Kit19]

The thing is though is that they are not listening. I don’t believe they lost a single voter because they weren’t woke enough on TWAW but they’re losing members and votes the more hardline they become. They’re not remotely listening at all

[theflushedzebra]

And yes, I'm beyond furious at them slandering WPUK, calling them a hate group.

Labour MPs calling a women's group, made up of many Labour trade unionists, a "hate group." Signing pledges stating this.

WPUK would be well within their rights to take legal action about that.